The official server flamewar topic

[mistergrey]

blackrazor: I think it's clear that the move didn't happen ideally, and that even after the fact, it won't end in a nice amicable agreement. That, is not enough to justify a total revamp of the existing admins in my opinion, for various reasons (call me biased if you wish, but this is practicality to me):

1- As much as Platyna did for the community over the years, the existing admins have been working behind the scenes and otherwise to make this game better for everyone. I understand the angry feelings all around, but none of that justifies getting rid of the people who know the project best, for the sake of appeasing.. hell, not even a majority of players.

2- No matter what the situation, someone will ALWAYS be unhappy with the administration of any project. The only difference from 6 months ago, is that rather than a team of alienated GMs, admins, and devs wishing for a host who actually respects their input... now, it's just everyone picking sides, or standing back and blaming everybody. This is not how issues get solved, it is how new issues get made, as well as leaving the project a disorganized mess.

3- This project has gone through a LOT of changes, both administrative, constant developer changes, new project directions... The move happened because most of the people contributing to and moderating this game, wanted to work together to make it better, and kept coming up against a brick wall. I can surely understand why the players want more transparency in administration... but, please keep in mind, that the situation was tricky all around. It's easy to say what you might have done differently.. but in reality, all of the "nicer" solutions would have ended pretty badly. Making a new fork would have resulted in this game having a huge loss in people working on it, and most would have just stayed because their player data and work was all here. Being fully transparent about the planned move, surely would have resulted in Platyna taking steps to ensure she remain in power... which, wouldn't have even been a problem, had she been willing to compromise with the people carrying the project forward, and the ones moderating it for her. I say that sincerely, even as I wish it had never come to this boiling point. It really hurts the sense of nostalgia I had playing this, to see Platyna removed from (this version of) the project. The silver lining though, is all the older contributors and players coming back recently.

Overall... yes we all have made mistakes. You would not likely do better in that situation, so please don't make it so black and white and point the finger at the lot of us. Many of us have avoided these topics to avoid furthering the drama... but that just lets people make an "evil group" out of the TMWC, which I can't see as being much better. I just want to see this project continue, preferably without constant accusations and demands... but this cycle is getting out of hand, and if nobody will take the first step and say "this is all stupid", it will never end. So let me just say... this is stupid.

[blackrazor]

Blackrazor, I have choose people who seemed to be trustworthy. If you hire and employe and grant him necessary access and he will abuse it, no court will tell you it was your fault. All decisions I have been making were in good of TMW in mind.

How on earth you imagine to elect sysadmins? Under what criteria? o11c, Jenalya, Frost, Crush, Jaxad and so on were people who I knew for several years and they seemed to be reliable, honest and trustworthy.

You act like a mother of a woman, who was abused by her husband and then left after 25 years of marriage telling "it is all your fault, you should know who you were chosing for a husband."

Not true - people can fake reliability, honesty and trustworthness very well. They have managed to fool me, despite the fact I am very carefull person.

Regards.

One thing you could have done is to have each person that you chose to have file access to first sign a contract, agreeing to never move or copy the data or to do anything unauthorized with it, and to acknowledge you as the owner and final arbitor of that data. If indeed you were in that position, then you had an obligation to protect the data in that manner. It is standard for employees with access to sensitive data to sign such contracts.

The second thing you could have done is to write up an organisational constitution that clearly defined the ownership of the data files, the project, and the process to add or remove officers (admins) instead of leaving it as an ad hoc thing just begging for eventual abuse.

What I am trying to do here is to get both sides in this to acknowledge major culpability, and then to agree to an organized, public, and community-driven administrative reset, so that we can have transparent responsible governance going forward. Set term lengths and voting would help ensure that it stays that way.

The vote is for the final arbiter, the top admin position. Everything else, from development, moderation, and sysadmin would remain the same. But everyone needs to answer to someone. All senior staff would answer to the top admin / arbiter (sort of like your old role Platyna), and that top admin would have to answer to the community, as there would be community votes, maybe even the possibility of community recalls, and set term lengths.

I'm trying to suggest the concept of democracy to this OSS project, after seeing were the alternative had brought us.

[o11c]

The second thing you could have done is to write up an organisational constitution that clearly defined the ownership of the data files, the project, and the process to add or remove officers (admins) instead of leaving it as an ad hoc thing just begging for eventual abuse.

The vote is for the final arbiter, the top admin position. Everything else, from development, moderation, and sysadmin would remain the same. But everyone needs to answer to someone. All senior staff would answer to the top admin / arbiter (sort of like your old role Platyna), and that top admin would have to answer to the community, as there would be community votes, maybe even the possibility of community recalls, and set term lengths.

Here's the thing: everyone already agreed that there was someone in that position: ElvenProgrammer. And "everyone" includes Platyna, up til the point that she realized that Elven had turned against her.

The procedure for legitimately moving moving the datafiles again in the future is exactly the same as it was this time: first get a consensus among the active admins, developers, and GMs; then get Elven's agreement. The fact that Elven is no longer active as a developer does not mean he no longer cares about or looks out for TMW (however, he is certainly sick of this drama). He still maintains http://themanaworld.it semi-regularly, and some of us suspect he still plays under a pseudonym (I have not checked the database, and will not because I respect him too much).

[blackrazor]

blackrazor: I think it's clear that the move didn't happen ideally, and that even after the fact, it won't end in a nice amicable agreement. That, is not enough to justify a total revamp of the existing admins in my opinion, for various reasons (call me biased if you wish, but this is practicality to me):

1- As much as Platyna did for the community over the years, the existing admins have been working behind the scenes and otherwise to make this game better for everyone. I understand the angry feelings all around, but none of that justifies getting rid of the people who know the project best, for the sake of appeasing.. hell, not even a majority of players.

2- No matter what the situation, someone will ALWAYS be unhappy with the administration of any project. The only difference from 6 months ago, is that rather than a team of alienated GMs, admins, and devs wishing for a host who actually respects their input... now, it's just everyone picking sides, or standing back and blaming everybody. This is not how issues get solved, it is how new issues get made, as well as leaving the project a disorganized mess.

3- This project has gone through a LOT of changes, both administrative, constant developer changes, new project directions... The move happened because most of the people contributing to and moderating this game, wanted to work together to make it better, and kept coming up against a brick wall. I can surely understand why the players want more transparency in administration... but, please keep in mind, that the situation was tricky all around. It's easy to say what you might have done differently.. but in reality, all of the "nicer" solutions would have ended pretty badly. Making a new fork would have resulted in this game having a huge loss in people working on it, and most would have just stayed because their player data and work was all here. Being fully transparent about the planned move, surely would have resulted in Platyna taking steps to ensure she remain in power... which, wouldn't have even been a problem, had she been willing to compromise with the people carrying the project forward, and the ones moderating it for her. I say that sincerely, even as I wish it had never come to this boiling point. It really hurts the sense of nostalgia I had playing this, to see Platyna removed from (this version of) the project. The silver lining though, is all the older contributors and players coming back recently.

Overall... yes we all have made mistakes. You would not likely do better in that situation, so please don't make it so black and white and point the finger at the lot of us. Many of us have avoided these topics to avoid furthering the drama... but that just lets people make an "evil group" out of the TMWC, which I can't see as being much better. I just want to see this project continue, preferably without constant accusations and demands... but this cycle is getting out of hand, and if nobody will take the first step and say "this is all stupid", it will never end. So let me just say... this is stupid.

I will be clear so I do not get misunderstood. I am talking about voting for only one position, a top-admin / final-arbiter, similar to the role Platyna once held, but with community nomination and voting, set term lengths, and even a recall mechanism for that single role, only.

That person would be an administrator responsible to maintain the organisation's legal status, its constitution, its rules of governance, its contracts. That person would be tasked with uniting the community, healing the wounds, and moving forward.

All other roles of moderators / GMs, developers, sysadmins would not change. There is no reason to get rid of everybody. This is not a doomsday suggestion, merely the notion of adding a democratic community-driven element to the top administrative position of this project.

[Rill]

I hearby ask, on behalf of the game's community...

What members of the game’s community have given you the authority to speak on their behalf? I certainly have not.

[Len]

I will be clear so I do not get misunderstood. I am talking about voting for only one position, a top-admin / final-arbiter, similar to the role Platyna once held, but with community nomination and voting, set term lengths, and even a recall mechanism for that single role, only.

That person would be an administrator responsible to maintain the organisation's legal status, its constitution, its rules of governance, its contracts. That person would be tasked with uniting the community, healing the wounds, and moving forward.

All other roles of moderators / GMs, developers, sysadmins would not change. There is no reason to get rid of everybody. This is not a doomsday suggestion, merely the notion of adding a democratic community-driven element to the top administrative position of this project.

I disagree, for me the fewer people we need to go through to get things done the better.
"In a hierarchy every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence" -Dr. Laurence J. Peter

[mistergrey]

I'll admit, I did misunderstand you at first. I hope it's understood that I don't speak for the TMWC group when I say this... but I could care less who is the top admin, so long as they actually respond to the people under them when they should, and don't go off on a power trip. I watched very carefully when this move happened for that very thing, as I know power does have the tendency to corrupt quickly... as of yet, I've seen no such abuse personally.

I can't really imagine who could be nominated for such a thing though, to be bluntly honest: If you think the GM polls have been hot debate issues, both in public polls and the GHP discussions after a poll passes... those would be nothing compared to the flamewar a head admin vote would stir up. That's not even to say it's a terrible idea... just that, it will make things much, much worse, before there's any chance of that making any improvements. At the least, I wouldn't consider it unless a large number of the players/others in this community also thought such a thing would be beneficial. If it seemed it would be, I'd be all for it. But... not just to respond to one or two who feel dissatisfied about how the server split has gone down. It would have to be a majority, I would think, to truly represent the community's wishes.

In short... I don't care, but I don't see the point unless most of the community wants that. More people in power just raises the potential for bigger internal issues later.

[blackrazor]

Here's the thing: everyone already agreed that there was someone in that position: ElvenProgrammer. And "everyone" includes Platyna, up til the point that she realized that Elven had turned against her.

The procedure for legitimately moving moving the datafiles again in the future is exactly the same as it was this time: first get a consensus among the active admins, developers, and GMs; then get Elven's agreement. The fact that Elven is no longer active as a developer does not mean he no longer cares about or looks out for TMW (however, he is certainly sick of this drama). He still maintains http://themanaworld.it semi-regularly, and some of us suspect he still plays under a pseudonym (I have not checked the database, and will not because I respect him too much).

If that is the case, then it should be in writing. If Elven is "top admin for life" or until he passes that torch on, then it needs to be clearly written officially as such. It seems that it wasn't written, and Platyna got to assuming that she was the top-admin and no one disgreed with her and told her it was Elven, certainly not publicly at least. Even the TMWC lists Elven only as an advisor and not as top-admin.

Since everyone invokes the name of Elven (kind of like god, this is easy to do because he's not there, not active at least) but still makes the effective top-admin someone else, it seems most prudent to have an elected top-admin that is active and elected, going forward. Heck, if you can reach Elven, you could ask him what he thinks of this idea, too. I am thinking of ways to unite the community. Platyna, o11c, Jen, Frost, Jax, even Elven are all free to be nominated and run in actual elections. You can hold any other position in the community and still be top-admin by election, and since there would be term-lengths, this responsibility would not likely weigh on any one person forever, but the torch could be passed on, democratically. Seriously, what is wrong with this idea as a way to reunite the community and move us democratically forward?

[blackrazor]

I'll admit, I did misunderstand you at first. I hope it's understood that I don't speak for the TMWC group when I say this... but I could care less who is the top admin, so long as they actually respond to the people under them when they should, and don't go off on a power trip. I watched very carefully when this move happened for that very thing, as I know power does have the tendency to corrupt quickly... as of yet, I've seen no such abuse personally.

I can't really imagine who could be nominated for such a thing though, to be bluntly honest: If you think the GM polls have been hot debate issues, both in public polls and the GHP discussions after a poll passes... those would be nothing compared to the flamewar a head admin vote would stir up. That's not even to say it's a terrible idea... just that, it will make things much, much worse, before there's any chance of that making any improvements. At the least, I wouldn't consider it unless a large number of the players/others in this community also thought such a thing would be beneficial. If it seemed it would be, I'd be all for it. But... not just to respond to one or two who feel dissatisfied about how the server split has gone down. It would have to be a majority, I would think, to truly represent the community's wishes.

In short... I don't care, but I don't see the point unless most of the community wants that. More people in power just raises the potential for bigger internal issues later.

I agree with you that the majority have to want an election, or it makes no sense to have one. Either way, whatever they chose, if they are given a choice, to vote or not to vote, and if voting then whom to chose, they will at least get the government they deserve.

I was just floating the idea in the thread especially provided for brainstorming our way out of this mess.

We all speak on behalf of the community. We are all a part of the community, and every time we type or act here, it has the potential to effect us all, in theory. But to be clear, I do not represent a specific group or a specific interest, and my only goal all along has been to seek a way to reunite the community. My preferred tools are transparency, accountability, and democracy. I don't care about power, I don't crave it, and to be clear, i would not run in any elections. I merely suggest them as a way of moving forward by having a truly accountable top-admin.

[Len]

Why do we need to complicate things so? Developers control the means of production, as such the TMW Committee controls TMW no matter who is the ultimate admin.

[Big Crunch]

Personally I see no reason to have final arbiter. As purely a player I had no concern with who platyna was, freeyorp, jax, devs any of them. I just wanted to play. I wanted new content and that's all. One thing that we don't think of is that we all sit here with a puffed up feeling of importance trying to figure out who should lord over the project and the players for the most part, don't give a Chocolate Cupcake. They want a distraction from school, work, parents, spouses, life et all. I would suggest we all just plan stuff, make stuff and release stuff. Hell, the only reason I'm part of tmwc is because I won a popularity contest. I have no appreciable skills in the realm of development or administrative server stuff. The only thing I bring to the committee is the players ear. I play on one alt or another nearly everyday. You know what I hear about all this crap? Nothing. The only people that care are those involved or the ones WE have swayed to care.

BC

Edit. To prove this point go online and find one name you don't know and ask them about the drama. If they aren't an alt, they couldn't care less unless the content stops coming.

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

To prove this point go online and find one name you don't know and ask them about the drama. If they aren't an alt, they couldn't care less unless the content stops coming.

I'd guarantee you're right about players not caring, but I don't think this proves your point.

It's a catch 22 of sorts; they'd probably care if they knew enough about what is/was/will be/what could be/what won't be/etc/etc/etc going on, but since they don't know what's going on they don't care. If they thought their personal or game data was at risk, if the project/server was at risk of closing doors forever, etc., they would become a lot more concerned really quickly. I'm not saying any of these things have ever been true or will ever be true, but isn't this the heart of the discussion; What did/could happen with the TMWC or what did/could have happened with the GHP that is a threat to the players and the existence of the game as we know it?

Not to be any more argumentative than I have to be, but it's the prerogative of the players to choose ignorance, but it's the responsibility of the TMW leaders, whoever they may be, to proactively protect the game. The players couldn't care less, not because this discussion is not important, but because it's not their responsibility to be concerned.

As for the TMW government, there will always be people who want one thing and some who want another. I suppose the nice part about governing bodies is that they can be overthrown as many times as necessary until enough people are complacent with it. I don't think the concept of the TMWC is any better or worse than the concept of the old system (they're really pretty similar), but what system actually works better is what's important and only time will tell us that.

Edit: wording

[Sanity]

Some facts:

1) the domain name will never point to platyna's ip address
2) the majority of developers (in fact I think all of them) have stated that they will not work in one team as the old hoster
3) everyone is happy with the move except the annoying Female dog, wolf, fox or otter and a bunch of her lackies, as can be seen by server onlines

Those are facts and there is no way around them. If you wanna Female dog, wolf, fox or otter, cry, ask for certificate of incorporation or whatever other Chocolate Cupcake, keep crying and doing so. Those three things are ones that matter and there is no way around them.

[Frost]

TMW is naturally attracted to improvements and greater value, and naturally moves away from low-value situations.

If you think someone should be replaced, go right ahead. Show that you're capable, willing, and reliable. Offer something better than what we have. If people aren't listening, improve your value.

Any idiot can complain on the Internet, and many do. To get respect, bring value, not volume.

[blackrazor]

TMW is naturally attracted to improvements and greater value, and naturally moves away from low-value situations.

If you think someone should be replaced, go right ahead. Show that you're capable, willing, and reliable. Offer something better than what we have. If people aren't listening, improve your value.

Any idiot can complain on the Internet, and many do. To get respect, bring value, not volume.

Interesting post. What about loyalty, comraderie, cliques, love, friendship, synergy, karma? I sincerely doubt it's all about min-maxing your value.