[RULES]-RULE#1 : "Do not abuse other players"

[knulfine]

@Uber_Kalimero
Not long ago I tried to talk about the very same topic. I gave suggestions others were discussing it, too. But it led to exactly nothing, because it seems noone wants to do something. Shame but true... If you wanna read it, here is the link:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7111

Btw, I say it again. The ignorebutton is not "the great solution".
Ignore is cool for smaller communities but this one is growing. To ignore someone means to let him pass with his bad behaviour and lack of common sense.
In IRC I lately said the same with that rule, delete it, and no problem anymore. But if it is a rule there must be ways to enforce it... And only talking to such people doesn't work.
A word filter is after all a sign... even if you can trick by changing letters or using 1337...
GMs could watch such things invisible. So they'd see what's happening and could ban...

[Cecil_Burrow]

I don't think we want GMs dictating what counts as good manners and what counts as rudeness. I really don't see why ignoring someone doesn't completely solve the problem.

[The Brao]

I really don't see why ignoring someone doesn't completely solve the problem.

If the ignore system could make the offender dumb and invisible, it would be ok. Remember that following someone everywhere and sitting on him without permission are abusive behaviours (but again, that's not clearly explicited in the #1 rule!).

Anyway, censorship is a bad idea. The problem isn't the abusive word in itself, but the idea behind it (and it's easy to circumvent censoring systems).
Autobans => VERY bad idea. Could be extremly annoying for the nice players too.

[knulfine]

[quote="Cecil_Burrow"I really don't see why ignoring someone doesn't completely solve the problem.[/quote]
Because it doesn't change a thing. maybe for the person who ignores but not for others... Why always let those guys pass with their behaviour? Why always let others deal with that... It's a rule people... We could ignore botters, too. Isn't that a great idea? Let's all ignore everyone who breaks any rule! Same rights for everyone. Free world...

[Cecil_Burrow]

But the only problem that needs to be solved is that a particular person finds another person offensive. That problem is completely solved by the former person ignoring the later. You can't assume that everyone is offended by the same thing, or that everyone should behave the same way. Do we really want the GMs to become some sort of morality police - and if so, whose morality will be the official, TMW approved morality?

Botting is different. If lots of bots hung around in areas with lots of monsters, then that would affect -everyone's- gaming experience in a fairly objective way, insofar as people's ability to gain experience by fighting monsters in those areas would be compromised. That would be a very concrete problem.

[Wombat]

But the only problem that needs to be solved is that a particular person finds another person offensive. That problem is completely solved by the former person ignoring the later. You can't assume that everyone is offended by the same thing, or that everyone should behave the same way. Do we really want the GMs to become some sort of morality police - and if so, whose morality will be the official, TMW approved morality?

Botting is different. If lots of bots hung around in areas with lots of monsters, then that would affect -everyone's- gaming experience in a fairly objective way, insofar as people's ability to gain experience by fighting monsters in those areas would be compromised. That would be a very concrete problem.

+1

[knulfine]

But the only problem that needs to be solved is that a particular person finds another person offensive. That problem is completely solved by the former person ignoring the later. You can't assume that everyone is offended by the same thing, or that everyone should behave the same way.

No that's not the only problem. I can only talk for me -> if someone offends me in person. I just walk away or go afk for a few minutes. But what I mean is annoying many people. e.g. in hurnscald. Calling people names, swearing, beg-spamming (don't know a good word for it). In such cases, what's better? 20 players ignoring someone (=let him pass) or one gm banning that player? That's not a gm desicion about moral. That's many people getting offended and the need of someone who can do something (=gm). Btw for me it doesn't matter if you ban someone or warp him to the last corner of snake desert

[Wombat]

So you group ignore them. knulfine, you keep insisting on making a big deal out of people that are extremely easy to ignore. If you can't convince people to put an annoying twerp on ignore, it is their problem and it is too bad you can't win against people that want to hear annoying people. There is no reason to have a GM intervene when our clients have the tools to ostracize people we want to. Take some leadership for yourself. I know I do and those that I have convinced of this strategy have so very little to complain about on this subject because it is so damned easy.

[The Brao]

Take some leadership for yourself.

The problem is that the TMW players community will grow up in the future. With about 110 people on the server, it's already hard to handle. If there are no common rules, then there are individual rules. Individual rules lead to anarchy, and i see no exemples where anarchy is working correctly (but Micronations, ofcourse).
The ignore system is only useful against spammers and minor abuse cases. For the rest a GM is needed.

Botting is different. If lots of bots hung around in areas with lots of monsters, then that would affect -everyone's- gaming experience in a fairly objective way, insofar as people's ability to gain experience by fighting monsters in those areas would be compromised.

I'm sorry but you're judging bots with a purely moral point of view. What you are saying is that botting is cheating, and cheating is unfair. What is fairness but a moral idea? All rules are based on moral, and i don't see any reasons why it could be different on TMW. Keep in mind that moral is different from good-thinking.

[knulfine]

@ Wombat: I know for you everything is a part of the game. I changed my mind some time ago and deal with it in my way. As I said in my previous post -> I go away or afk.

I don't call GMs when I have a problem (i did once) because in this game (like in real life) I learned that noone cares about anything and players have to deal with problems.

[Vink]

OK, here is my answer.

Since I started to play this game I witnessed this rule enforced in three different ways :

• A Game Master promises to talk to the offender.

Because we shouldn't ban people without proof.

[*]A Game Master asks the offended (and eventually the offender in case of reply inside the forum) to ignore the offender (or both if replied).

If it's not serious abuse, ignoring might solve the problem. If ignoring doesn't solve the problem, it's a sign that the abuse might be serious. Also, the person reporting could be the actual offender if the accused is not guilty. To deliberately and publicly accuse someone falsely is clearly abusive. Without proof, talking to them is pretty much all we can do.

[*]The offender continues the offenses in Player Talk and the local Moderator censors the eventual replies from the upset offended.[/list]

I would guess that abusive threads or posts are removed, or that the thread gets locked if there's too much of that sort of thing in there.

[John P]

I first would like to re-emphasize that this community is pretty big and growing huge (especially as windows releases become crappier ). Then I'd like to add (as in the other discussion) that solutions should try to be preventative instead of responsive. Try to come up with ways to discourage the behavior instead of allowing it to happen, then responding. Preventative action is the most ideal in making the community safer and more welcoming of growth.

I am also sick of "don't limit my freedom" response. Soldiers don't fight for your right to swear. They fight for your right to voice your opinion, and the right for the people to decide where to draw lines, if they choose to do so. Freedom does have a limit. You are not allowed to impose on other peoples' freedoms, and that is the limit to your freedom. Hence we have rules, laws. Anarchist behaviors do not encourage growth.

We have to drop the notion that "This is an MMO. These things happen in MMO's." That is like 18th, early 19th century response to pirating, which was counter-productive for everyone except pirates. We should at least try to stop or inhibit rule breaking.

This should be done through client side or server side restrictions, such as word filtering, spam governing (5 lines of text per x seconds, not being able to repeat the exact same line twice or three times). Who cares if "people can get around those". Its a start and will weed out the more simple abuse problems.

There are other preventative solutions out there. Lets embrace them. We are trying to create user-friendly nation, not free international-water chaos-ville survival of the fittest.

[Wombat]

The ignore system is only useful against spammers and minor abuse cases. For the rest a GM is needed.

No, it is useful against every case that deals with game chat "abuse". Form a player group or join one and make this an issue that when people act a certain way you group ignore them. "Abusers" that want to be taken seriously will stop and those that don't quit playing. These problems continue to resolve themselves in very short periods of time. They'd resolve themselves faster if people were quicker to ask the community to ignore annoying people and those within earshot actually did. Make this a common social more and much more will be accomplished towards minimizing these problems.

This should be done through client side or server side restrictions, such as word filtering, spam governing (5 lines of text per x seconds, not being able to repeat the exact same line twice or three times). Who cares if "people can get around those". Its a start and will weed out the more simple abuse problems.

The auto-ban is already in place, word filtering can be gotten around and this has been discussed many many times. Check "Suggestions" for the many threads that deal with some form of word filtering.

[The Brao]

Form a player group or join one and make this an issue that when people act a certain way you group ignore them.

I've understood that. But using the ignore system is a right, not a duty. While people are using it there's no abuse, because people are accepting the fact of being insulted, and they just decide to pass over it. But as soon as somebody's being offended and doesn't want to ignore the offender, then he is concidered as "abused".
I'm only dealing with those cases.

Make this a common social more and much more will be accomplished towards minimizing these problems.

Indeed, but nobody can order everybody to think like that. World would be a very nice (or a very bad) place if humans could all think the same.

[Anna]

Ill start my collection of screenshots. Abuse is not only swearing or calling others names. (Yes Uber you can have the last word when im done).There is only one rule in this game that is enforced, (botting). the others should be erased from the list. A rule isnt any good if it isnt enforced. Its very irritating to see these global announcments, "speak english in public" .Quit the whiny bullshit and enforce the rules that are in place. If you cant enforce the rules, you may be in the wrong position, and someone else needs to take your place. If Speaking English In Public Is a Rule, Inforce It. There is no rule that says I cant say (And I quote from George Carlin) the 7 words you cant say on TV, (Chocolate Cupcake,piss....Ill spare the rest because you all know what they are). If I call someone a retard, they know why you did. If a derogatory name is DIRECTED to a certian player, then maybe it could be considered abuse. And yes I have also seen people instigated into saying something so they can be turned in with a screenshot. (Que ubers links to verbal abuse).

This game is going the way it is due to the lack of rule enforcement. end of story.