Being developer and GM at the same time

[Ablu]

This devs are not allowed to be gm's sounds pretty damn silly to me. Who are devs? People who contribute? Why are GMs not allowed to contribute to the game then? Why are people who actually want to help on the project (and who are nice people (otherwise they would not be GMs, right?) disallowed to help?

This makes totally no sense to me.

Regards
Ablu

[Crush]

This devs are not allowed to be gm's sounds pretty damn silly to me. Who are devs? People who contribute? Why are GMs not allowed to contribute to the game then? Why are people who actually want to help on the project (and who are nice people (otherwise they would not be GMs, right?) disallowed to help?

This makes totally no sense to me.

You are mixing something up. It's not that game masters shouldn't become developers. Developers shouldn't become game masters.

The reasons are these:

1. Developers time is precious. While there is no shortage of GM volunteers (that's why we have such a rigorous nomination process), there is always a shortage of developers. Also, the most skilled developers use their skills for a living so their free time is limited. That's why we want developers to concentrate fully on developing and not waste their time on doing things other people can do.

2. We don't want developers to be involved in unnecessary drama. Game masters are in a very exposed position. They are in constant danger of making themselves unpopular and being the target of undeserved shitstorms (happened in the past, will happen again. It's part of the job). But the appreciation of the community is the only payment developers get for their work. Losing it can really hurt ones feelings and destroy their motivation to contribute.

[Chicka-Maria]

This devs are not allowed to be gm's sounds pretty damn silly to me. Who are devs? People who contribute? Why are GMs not allowed to contribute to the game then? Why are people who actually want to help on the project (and who are nice people (otherwise they would not be GMs, right?) disallowed to help?

This makes totally no sense to me.

You are mixing something up. It's not that game masters shouldn't become developers. Developers shouldn't become game masters.

The reasons are these:

1. Developers time is precious. While there is no shortage of GM volunteers (that's why we have such a rigorous nomination process), there is always a shortage of developers. Also, the most skilled developers use their skills for a living so their free time is limited. That's why we want developers to concentrate fully on developing and not waste their time on doing things other people can do.

2. We don't want developers to be involved in unnecessary drama. Game masters are in a very exposed position. They are in constant danger of making themselves unpopular and being the target of undeserved shitstorms (happened in the past, will happen again. It's part of the job). But the appreciation of the community is the only payment developers get for their work. Losing it can really hurt ones feelings and destroy their motivation to contribute.

1st of all, this prevents developers from even wanting to develop. They should be able to have options not stuck on a dev team to help because of selfish admins trying to force people to stay as a DEV. I'm not directing to any admin in particular but it seems that this is how it works. Developers should be able to ask for their @40 to be taken away not BEG. If they want to do something else than contribute that's their choice and if someone takes their choice away that makes them not want to contribute even more. Developers are volunteers, they can also not volunteer they are humans and they have this right, its kind of sad they feel they have to leave for a few years to not be considered a developer anymore.

2nd of all, the developer team has more drama than the game itself does, there are GM's that still contribute even if they are in Chocolate Cupcake storms as you say, take mrgrey for example hes a great contributor and hes a GM that has to deal with Chocolate Cupcake almost every time he logs on. It doesn't stop him from helping the game and contributing things at all.

The no developer can become a GM rule is for selfish reasons and its wrong.
Keep in mind if you don't treat people as a human being yes a developer to not as a computer but as a human being. They will stay, whether they develop or not that's their choice but look at how decisions like this "held the developer team together" there's barely a team anymore.

Ever heard of the saying give the dog more leash or he will want to run away and explore?

Feel free to move this to another thread I'm not sure its even on topic anymore.

[Ablu]

<Frost> Platyna, would you please define what a Dev is in your rule?
<Platyna> Frost: Someone that has developer or contributor status.

This does not really give any reasons why and what the developer or contributor status is?

Regards
Ablu

[o11c]

You're a developer if you're on the list of people who can't be a GM.

It's a silly rule, but if you want to be a GM you can always be taken off the list, unless you're I or Jenalya - we have titles. (yes, that is grammatically correct, but everybody says it wrong)

[Chicka-Maria]

@Chicka

I found he can also be rude to quite a few players (who i will not mention if they like they can mention themselves) and cannot handle trolls (handling trolls is a big essential for a GM to have) considering he "raged quit" due to Meway trying to rejoin the Dev roster

I didn't see any kind of "rage" when Tux announced he leaved the dev team on forum. He was not in charge of this team, thus I can't see anything wrong in that : many other developers left or did not join this team because they felt it was not friendly enough. More : a development channel should not be a place where to troll.

@nard
You were not in the same development IRC room to see it that's why you did not witness it. Even if you are not in charge of a team you are apart of it and "raging" from anything just shows immaturity. Also you just said a development channel is not a place where to troll anyway...well the mana world has lots of trolls and GMs have to be able to handle that.

Anyway i will not turn this into a discussion forum about what irc channels you attend.

regards,

[Crush]

There is a lot of circular reasoning here.

[Chicka-Maria]

You're a developer if you're on the list of people who can't be a GM.

So basically you're saying your going to deprive yourself from potential contributors because they want to be a GM in the future and not on the "you cant be a GM list"? (most people wont be devs if they know they don't have this option) lol If that's the case I really don't have a comment great enough to say how bad that rule is. This will make people not even want to contribute because it gives them less options. Its real crap if someone has potential to be a GM, Passes the poll even and then gets rejected due to them being a Developer? lol If someone passes a GM vote and passes GHP they should have the option to be a GM and have a GM status but still contribute, or they can just stay a developer. They shouldn't be forced said they cant do something because they volunteer something to precious (with their own time). They should be able to have the option to do what they want if they have the requirements for it. Development is a way to help the game yes and people enjoy new content, but being a GM also helps the game to prevent trolls and abuse which also helps people enjoy the game.

regards,

[mistergrey]

I have brought this topic up before, though from the side of GMs being able to be considered developers as well. I'm still uncertain as to whether a GM can actually be considered a developer too, and I'll admit Crush's response confuses me a bit. If I take it to mean that developers cannot become GMs, but GMs can become developers... What would stop a person from abandoning their developer status, passing a GM poll and becoming a GM, and then resuming development where they left off?

I shudder to think that this may add to this topic's drama content, but... it has happened a few times now that a developer requested to be removed from the team, and the process has been delayed, sometimes for long periods of time (perhaps because the dev team hopes they will change their mind). If such a person wishes to stop developing and become a GM, this delay could cause some confusion - such as players asking why someone with GM lvl 40 (dev access) is allowed to have a GM poll running if developers cannot become a GM.

My last, mostly unrelated comment: I'm not sure how relevant any of this is anymore, as I haven't seen an active GM poll in quite some time (with the exception of tux's poll). It was difficult to reach the needed votes with many more active players, a lot of whom are gone or inactive now. I can understand how developers are in higher demand than potential GMs... but at the same time, it becomes progressively more difficult for new wannabe GMs as less people are voting. When you factor in that most polls end up with a very split vote, due to personal opinion or conflict with players, the chances of a person passing the poll, and the GHP discussion after, seems more and more remote. The only point I have to make, is that while new developers can start contributing anytime even without dev status, there is a long process for GMs. I'm fairly certain if even 2 of the more active GMs quit right now, the game would be left mostly unmoderated for a long while, unless an admin stepped in temporarily to enforce rules. Food for thought.

[Jenalya]

I think for most people it's not possible to be regularly active as developer and as GM, because both positions require quite some time and energy. But I don't see a point in forcefully regulating which of both to choose and as MrGrey already pointed out, both groups are in need of more people.
If a gm wants to contribute to the development, I don't see a problem in that, and if a developer shows ambitions to run for GM, I neither see a problem.

Thinking about this, the developer status is really only vaguely defined. Someone who has push access to the repositories and uses that can surely be called a developer, but what about persons having push access but being inactive for a longer while? Or pixel artist who don't use git? Or people who contribute unregularly? The rules in which cases a dev cap is given out and @40 is given were changed over time... So overall, it's a rather unspecified term who exactly can be considered a "developer", therefore this rule about developers can't be GMs is as of now more or less meaningless, it's just nit-picking on names.

On a side-note, @40 doesn't equal developer status. I just looked into the gm level file of the server, and there are quite some people with @40 who are not active developers.

[Nard]

On a side-note, @40 doesn't equal developer status. I just looked into the gm level file of the server, and there are quite some people with @40 who are not active developers.

maybe they should not be GM 40 anymore.
By the way, I still don't understand the utility of the GM40 Status at this moment:

• It is somewhat confusing for player who don't have a deep knowledge of the game: the ability to broadcast, to appear on GMlog can let suppose that they have any kind of aurhority.
• TMW has a testing server ( and even 2!) where actual content can be tested (Thanks Frost, Jenalya...). To me, it was necessary only when there was only one server.

I cannot see any reason why a developer could not be a GM ad long as he/she has the qualities for that task. But I also see no reason why a developer could be a better GM than any other player. Both tasks are totally distinct and independant the qualities required for both tasks are mostly different except the ability to work in team. Why shouldn't a GM be a developer during part of his leisure time? She/he could join another project, better she/he works on this one

[Nard]

@nard
You were not in the same development IRC room to see it that's why you did not witness it. Even if you are not in charge of a team you are a part of it and "raging" from anything just shows immaturity. Also you just said a development channel is not a place where to troll anyway...well the mana world has lots of trolls and GMs have to be able to handle that.

Anyway i will not turn this into a discussion forum about what irc channels you attend.

• I didn't speak (and don't want to) about IRC because I stopped listening to most TMW IRC channels. You did not speak of it (IRC) too in the post I quoted.
• You say it was "raging" was it really? I Just know that Tux left it because he didn't feel to belong to it anymore. I find nothing immature in that:

  And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

• I maintain that development channel is not a place where to troll it is a place where to develop. No dev is obliged to handle that as a dev.
• A GM has the means to stop a troll who goes beyond the limits and the right to use them, fortunately. I am sure tux9th will make the best usage of these rights

[meway]

I support Tux9th's nomination for the following reasons:

• He speaks English far well enough to be a GM, (note that some people may have difficulties to understand other people even if they speak their own language, this is not Tux9th's case : he knows how to say I do'nt understand, or I am wrong). Speaking other languages is an improvement for actual GM team.
• Tux9th is quite Fair : to my knowledge he is able to listen to others and make abstraction of his feelings when needed. As other GMs
• Tux9th is Patient when situation requires it, as much as other GMs.
• Tux9th has nice ideas (except the unwalkable beds)

I will also say to be totally frank, that I regret that Tux9th didn't stay a developer because he was very productive and preferred work to big shouts and long talks. I would have also preferred for him an Event Coordinator status where he wouldn't have had to bear with the rule enforcing burden.
Note: I am happy that an european player is proposed, it was a need though not enough to get my support.

@meway: the thread you quoted ends like this:

You joined the game yesterday and you broke several rules - you spammed and abused other players including GMs.
In short; there is higher chance that a giant asteroid will hit Earth this year than you becoming a GM.
I see that the community has the same opinion as mine.
Closing the thread as requested.

I do'nt understand in that that you could not be a GM because you were a dev.
@Chicka

I found he can also be rude to quite a few players (who i will not mention if they like they can mention themselves) and cannot handle trolls (handling trolls is a big essential for a GM to have) considering he "raged quit" due to Meway trying to rejoin the Dev roster

I didn't see any kind of "rage" when Tux announced he leaved the dev team on forum. He was not in charge of this team, thus I can't see anything wrong in that : many other developers left or did not join this team because they felt it was not friendly enough. More : a development channel should not be a place where to troll.

What you pointed out doesn't matter really... Its the fact that she said even if I were nominated with the proper votes I would not become a gm anyways because of my dev status. Stop pointing out the petty bullshit and look at the facts.

[Nard]

What you pointed out doesn't matter really... Its the fact that she said even if I were nominated with the proper votes I would not become a gm anyways because of my dev status. Stop pointing out the petty bullshit and look at the facts.

You are right on the first point, Platyna also said that (http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 61#p114061) :

Developers cannot be GMs, therefore even if meway passes the voting he will not be made a GM.

Regards.

_________________
Zuzanna K. Filutowska,
I prefer to be a dreamer among the humblest, with visions to be realized,
than lord among those without dreams and desires. -- Kahlil Gibran

If you are satisfied with the belief that it was the main reason, no one can help you
Look at the facts:

I made some rude comments on irc. The result I was permaban by an op.[...]
I was removed from the development group once again [...]

and the following. (http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 20&t=15207)
Anyway you are not the topic of this thread and for sure not the perfect example to quote when speaking about GM-devs incompatibilities as every one who was once banned from the development team.

[Crush]

My last, mostly unrelated comment: I'm not sure how relevant any of this is anymore, as I haven't seen an active GM poll in quite some time (with the exception of tux's poll). It was difficult to reach the needed votes with many more active players, a lot of whom are gone or inactive now. I can understand how developers are in higher demand than potential GMs... but at the same time, it becomes progressively more difficult for new wannabe GMs as less people are voting. When you factor in that most polls end up with a very split vote, due to personal opinion or conflict with players, the chances of a person passing the poll, and the GHP discussion after, seems more and more remote. The only point I have to make, is that while new developers can start contributing anytime even without dev status, there is a long process for GMs. I'm fairly certain if even 2 of the more active GMs quit right now, the game would be left mostly unmoderated for a long while, unless an admin stepped in temporarily to enforce rules. Food for thought.

We can not pretend that the TMW community is still as large as it used to be, so maybe it should indeed be considered to lower the quorum of 60 votes.