Iron Versus Ordinary Arrows

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Rakimt
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Iron Versus Ordinary Arrows

Post by Rakimt »

I've asked a lot of archers what sort of arrows they use, and every answer I've gotten has been iron arrows. I use normal arrows, and I figured I'd post why.

Just imagine for a moment that iron arrows do double the damage and cost twice as much. You'd use half as many iron arrows as normal arrows, right? Well, let's pretend you do 100 damage with normal, 200 with iron. Against a monster with 500 health, you'd use 5 normal arrows, and 3 iron arrows. Net cost: 500 for normal, 600 for iron. In fact in this case, iron arrows would frequently be more expensive. But would they be worth it? Absolutely — you'd be killing things so much faster.

Now, while iron arrows do 50 damage and normal arrows only do 25, iron arrows certainly don't do double damage. That's already pretty obvious, but it's important to think about: nearly all the damage you do comes from your bow and your dexterity, but all the money you pay comes from arrows. Iron arrows only do a maximum of 25 extra damage, and that's a best-case scenario, but a good archer will be doing maybe 200 damage a hit, or more. So the effect of the arrows is actually very small compared to the overall damage.

Okay, but is it still worth it for that little bit of extra damage? Well, let's say an archer does a constant 250 damage with normal arrows, and thus a constant 275 damage with iron arrows. Against a snake, with 850 hit-points according to the item db, the number of hits to kill is: 3.4 with normal arrows; 3.1 with iron. Both of these would round up to four, because you can't shoot fractions of arrows. What's that? It takes exactly the same number of hits in the end to kill this snake, taking iron arrows at their best possible 25 extra damage! In fact, this isn't a very atypical case; I've found that there isn't much difference between iron arrows and normal arrows in practice, and I've been using normal arrows for a long time.

If you buy 5000 arrows (the amount I tend to buy when stocking up), you'll be spending 25000 for iron arrows, and 15000 for normal arrows — a difference of 10k. For that much, you could buy 20 iron or concentration potions. Would the extra damage given by iron arrows be equivalent to 20 iron or concentration potions, used judiciously?

Some people, though, use iron arrows because they feel they want to eke out as much damage as they can, and the money isn't as much of an issue. But unless you're going to be using iron and concentration potions continually, you're not doing as much damage as you could, so you're already compromising with respect to money versus power.

I personally keep a cache of iron arrows just in case I run out of normal arrows and I want to finish off a monster or get to some valuable drops before going back to buy more arrows. I also tend to use iron arrows when I'm using iron or concentration potions, just to eke out those few extra damage points, but I personally doubt this practice is really worth it.

Agree, or disagree? Anything else to add that I've forgotten / didn't take into account?

Anyway, good luck in the game; hope to see you killing snakes or skulls with me sometime ;-) .

Edit (an update for skulls): I just felt like I should mention that skulls are a fairly different monster to others. There are two thoughts you could take for this: "I barely hit, so I want to do as much damage as possible when I do"; and "I barely hit, so I'm throwing away heaps of arrows that aren't even doing damage" (actually there's a third: "I'm so awesome that I hit every time", but I'm ignoring them). A miss should be considered a hit that does 0 damage. It does 0 damage no matter what arrow you're using, and its frequency is always the same. Combine that with the reduced damage that skulls take and you're barely adding any damage to your average hit, so the value-for-money of iron arrows is even lower than usual. It's probably better for mid-level archers (i.e. 50–70 or thereabouts) to go against mobs rather than harder enemies, because bows are less accurate and archers are on a "pay-per-hit plan".
My name's Draugn or Draug in game.
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Acegi
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Re: Iron Versus Ordinary Arrows

Post by Acegi »

We spoke about this awhile ago and since then I have stopped using iron arrows. I think you did quite successfully convince me over! I use all normal arrows now as my main and I can't imagine spending lots of money on iron arrows now.

At the time of writing this I have 72 agility (ignoring cat's ears) and even though I'd like to think I'm fairly accurate I still miss a significant amount on higher level monsters. You've already covered Skulls but even grass snakes (I'm completely ignoring JackO for obvious reasons) I can miss up to 6 arrows. That's 30gp gone and if you're lucky you get 500gp cotten cloth (100gp steak, 80gp grass snake tongue, 50gp grass snake egg). Granted they're all enough to cover my cost BUT at 21.5% (chance of getting something) that's 140gp [(1/0.215)*30=139.535] loss. If you don't get a cotten cloth then you're making a loss, cotten cloth drop being 3.5%

Of course you don't hunt grass snakes for profit (bats and red slimes better) it does show that iron arrows leave your bank statement a bit serious. A little contradictory to what you wrote though Draugn, the case where I would contemplate using iron arrows actually though is skulls when it is crowded. I've seen lots of cases where because there are so many people attacking the same skull(s) every hit of damage counts. Now I agree that the skull damage reduction does come into effect but for people wanting to get even a slightly larger share of exp skulls maybe worth using iron arrows on.

To summarise my opinion is that unless you're hitting something very competitively hunted (like skulls) it's almost not even worth considering getting iron arrows as your main ammo supply. Normal arrows wins!
"Every problem is an opportunity in disguise..." Inara, Firefly
Anich
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Re: Iron Versus Ordinary Arrows

Post by Anich »

Amongst all the formulas and probable statistics, in the end it boggles down to one logical argument: which one enables the player to complete his or her goal quickest?

Maybe you are aimed acquiring levels or exp?

Consider the relative gameplay elements- consumables; distance between travel from shops and dungeons; MOB's (including types, stats', location, population and density, perhaps AI though I think they all behave the same); Players (personal character properties, population and density); Money.

Really in this case, you are trying to beat the time against exp. For instance if you have so much money for arrows and are trying to conserve as many weight in your inventory because you probably won't be in town for the next several hours, then normal arrows may prove more efficient. If you are with a group of players and perhaps don't have the slight extra damage to effectively gain that extra exp, then you probably could use some iron arrows. Concentration potions exponentially increase your damage (and rapidly use arrows but...), when the situation is critical, pairing these with some iron arrows may save the day.

To relate directly to the main topic- for now, it is probably better if you mainly use normal ones, only use iron ones to pair with concentration potion AND iron potion in critical situations. Buy about 70-100 iron arrow for each concentration and iron potion you get (about as much as it takes before the steroids wear off) I recommend this being 15-25% of your arrow budget. Your money is more well spent that way, the extent of it being on how well you play. Otherwise have lotsa' fun :)

NB:
Iron Arrow:
+50 damage (adds 50 points to the total amount displayed in current player status)
12g (0.012kg) weight
Costs 5GP
Stackable (obviously)

Arrow (Ordinary Arrows):
+25 damage (adds 25 points to the total amount displayed in current player status)
8g (0.008kg) weight
Costs 3GP
Stackable also

Thanks Draugn, you just made me post... *Submerges back into obscurity* Seriously though, games are about fun. Not about tactics, unless that's what's fun for you ;)
Rakimt
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Re: Iron Versus Ordinary Arrows

Post by Rakimt »

I do love tactics and maths, but I also do most things just for the fun of the moment; I actually haven't gone into the bat caves for money at all since they gave them the highest money–per–time-to-kill ratio (although I went in once on my way to the lamp snakes for tongues).
Acegi wrote:A little contradictory to what you wrote though Draugn, the case where I would contemplate using iron arrows actually though is skulls when it is crowded. I've seen lots of cases where because there are so many people attacking the same skull(s) every hit of damage counts.
Anich wrote:If you are with a group of players and perhaps don't have the slight extra damage to effectively gain that extra exp, then you probably could use some iron arrows. Concentration potions exponentially increase your damage (and rapidly use arrows but...), when the situation is critical, pairing these with some iron arrows may save the day.
You both raise a good point that I didn't take into account — that the amount of experience you gain is proportional to the damage you do, which is quite relevant considering that it's better to fight in groups than alone. Now the really interesting thing is when everyone in a group of archers is applying that tactic. Ultimately, the distribution of experience would be the same if everyone was using iron compared to everyone using ordinary, so my logic would apply to the group as a whole and it would be better to use ordinary arrows, but for each individual, trying to maximise experience, it would be better to use iron; it's like Prisoners' dilemma all over again :lol: .

As for using iron arrows with potions, yeah, I'll continue to do that I think; thanks for your input. I actually have iron arrows set to item shortcut 0, and iron and concentration potions set to the item shortcuts next to that (- and = according to my Wikipedia picture of the Qwerty keyboard, although they're [ and ] on mine) so I can just run my hands over the three keys when I want to MAX OUT THE POWER! :P

I'd like to encourage archers lower than level 70 to use normal arrows though :P . However, everyone should take what I say and weigh it against their own situation and decide what's best for them.

Acegi, I actually have a script that calculates the amount of money you get per kill based on their store selling price (spoiler: last time I ran the script the top 6 were Jack-O: 321.0, Bat: 65.825, Fire Skull: 55.0, Log Head: 55.0, Red Slime: 50.045, Sea Slime: 36.38), but I've thought a few times about the effect of the number of arrows on these figures, which is quite dependent on the actual archer.
My name's Draugn or Draug in game.
Inkweaver
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Re: Iron Versus Ordinary Arrows

Post by Inkweaver »

Personally I have 99 dex so almost no arrows are wasted. Also, I like to work in the mines with other people, in cases where extra damage equals extra exp. Still, though, I have to admit that you do have a good point with regard to using normal arrows and then using the extra money for potions.

I'll try it out and see if I save more money. Right now my money intake and money expenditures are just about balanced.
DumbDude1994
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Re: Iron Versus Ordinary Arrows

Post by DumbDude1994 »

i only used arrows when i was in the caves killing bats which is the only reason i used them which was great gold getter because id buy 1000 iron for 5000 gold and i would end up getting 30-40k from bat wings and teeth
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