The Mana World Forums

I don't think there would be any new evidence that would be hidden from me during that time, but as you wish. Let's talk about my years.

blackrazor wrote: ↑09 Mar 2019, 05:58 Access to Platyna's machine was authorized for back-ups, roll-back restorations, and repository commits.

I gave Frost access.

Platyna did not impose any such conditions when I contacted her for Frost's account sharing exception (EDIT: on 2012-03-30), nor did I impose any of my own.

frost/2012-04-01.log wrote: (01:30:24)<Freeyorp> All seems good, send you me your public key and I'll add you
(02:06:33)<Frost> Cool!
(02:06:34)<Frost> [SSH key data redacted]
(02:06:34)<Frost> [SSH key data redacted]
(02:06:34)<Frost> [SSH key data redacted]
(02:07:19)<Frost> I would really like a bit of training or something before I have confidence in doing anything on there.
(02:07:50)<Frost> If I want to screw up a server, I can do that at home perfectly fine without breaking things for others.
(02:09:07)<Frost> "training" can be whatever you think I should know in order to not muck things up.

His caution was appreciated, but he learned fast.

In case there was any doubt about authority over the account, or in case there was anything that was forgotten, not conferred, or unable to be conferred through our chain of succession, that was why Elven, bjorn, Jaxad, and I were all contacted. Everyone assented.

blackrazor wrote: ↑09 Mar 2019, 05:58 Inactivity matters plenty, since you judged Platyna by the same standard. She wasn't available to reply or to fix for a period of some months, so you saw fit to depose her. I am simply exposing the blatant hypocrisy of that thinking by demonstrating that Bjorn and Elven were unavailable for longer, but because the "revolutionary mediocracy" (intentional) didn't like Platyna, they judged her by a different standard. As far as I am concerned, Platyna took provisional control of "eathena@ account" in the absence of Bjorn and Elven, in order to preserve the live project in which she had invested so much of her own time and creative energy. She has sole jurisdiction of the Platinum machine, she ran the TMW iteration on "eathena@ account" in the absence of Bjorn and Elven, so the output of data belongs to her. You can stand on your head and wave your legs in the air for all I care, and it will not change my opinion.

Inactivity does not confer ownership. Inactivity might be reasonable motivation to move, and might cause such a move by the owners, however.

With that said, this "provisional control" theory is quite interesting. Thank you.

Believing one can take "provisional control" in the absence (though bjorn was still around) of the account holder might explain why both parties felt the eathena@ account was theirs by March 2013. It would also explain the events of very late 2012, when Platyna tried to use the long broken controller scripts on the eathena@ account.

gm.log.2012-11 wrote: [2012-11-17 16:56:12] 009-1.gat(58,41) Platyna(2004123) : @broadcast In like 20 minutes I i will try to restart the server for the event. I may break it as someone broke the control scripts I have written...

The eathena.sh script and eathena-monitor in general has a history of breaking things and data corruption. Even before my time running the servers, bjorn was already running each server individually within loops in GNU Screen. Though at times, he ran the map-server under gdb when Jaxad, fate, or peavey needed to troubleshoot what the latest thing going wrong with the then new magic system was. Over time, the process of running the servers evolved: I created scripts that automatically took backup snapshots immediately before starting, added locking restart loops, and much later, Frost moved from GNU screen to tmux. I don't think anyone was trying to use the monitor, even The Alternate World ran a similar setup to us. (Maybe meway tried using the monitor on his own server at some point, but he was also once insane enough to run tmwAthena as root...)

Luckily, the monitor hard failed rather than potentially running into one of its many dangerous soft failure conditions. There had not been a monolithic top level save/ directory [since 2011]. Each server needs to be run under its own working directory (to be able to see eg. world/map/save), or it would refuse to start, saying that it could not find the save data. eathena-monitor had not been updated to use the proper working directory, since nobody used the old scripts, and so nothing happened. Everyone was able to bring things back to normal. bjorn even cleaned up after Platyna's celebration that followed as eg. PvP was left on, and spawned monsters were strewn everywhere that were making areas impassable.

(Come to think of it, the 2011 save/ move might finally explain something that has always perplexed me. In the days immediately after the move March 2013, Platyna thought that the save files had been deleted, somehow, and made many posts about how they were "wiped out" or "gone". Eventually she noticed that they were still there, and ran her own copy on themanaworld.net from April. Unperturbed, people switched to complaining about how guilty the TMWC must have been to (by using a standard tool like rsync...) leave files behind instead. c'est la guerre.)

With that said, I'm quite nonplussed about how you might imagine that even if one legitimately could and did take "provisional control" of an account, that this would imply taking exclusive ownership of its contents, to the extent that even the original account owners may not make a copy. Are you serious?

To try to construct a small test case again, consider the following hypothetical:

Bob founds a project 2004. A script that displays a poem which changes each day.
Alex runs a server at anime-fanclub.example.
Bob is friends with Alex, so Alex gives Bob an account on his anime-fanclub.example server to serve his poetry from.
By 2007, Bob's project has produced quite a lot of poetry, so Alex wants Bob to move on. Bob gets an account at free-shells-for-nonprofits.example, a server hosted by Carol, and continues to serve poetry from there.
In 2012, Bob has been away for a while, so Carol assumes "provisional control" of the poetry service account to try to fix some typos that had had turned up. Bob drops by to fix up a few things, which were done less than ideally, a few hours later.
Early 2013, Bob and Carol are no longer friends, so Bob copies off his poetry script, and continues to serve linguistic wit from a virtual server on Azure.

Would you say that Bob acted unreasonably? Would you say that he did "trespass onto another person's machine, and copy files against their permission, and keep and use them without a judge's ruling"?

EDIT: Added mention of the exact day that Platyna gave assent to share the eathena@ account with Frost.

---Freeyorp

Platyna wrote: ↑08 Mar 2019, 22:48 When did I post I am not going to host TMW anymore?

The precedent cited was from [2009-05-06 08:20 UTC, in "My resignation from being TMW host."]. In full:

Platyna wrote: ↑06 May 2009, 08:20 Dear All,

I was never hidding anything from the community, so I would like to tell you that I have given it some thought, and decided to resign from hosting TMW.

The reason is, that since we are no longer friends with Bjorn and I am no longer involved into the project, I have no motivation to sustain DDoS attacks and constant hax attempts. This sever runs since 1997 and users pay for the service not with money but with their gratitude and respect to the admin. Bjorn obviously stoped to pay for the service long time ago.

This is not revenge, any of you can sustain problematic situations for a friend but no one will like to have problems for some ungrateful stranger. At least I do not simply shut down everything like Ultramichy did, Bjorn is given a comfortable amount of time to move.

I gave Bjorn multiple chances to fix our relations, and to make an agreement to cooperate for the good of the project, he decided to not take advantage of them.

I am interested to still host my own TMW server, since there are quite a few people who wanted a fork, they may contact me via email platyna at platinum.linux.pl

Have fun and good luck all.

That particular divorce process was ultimately halted, as you know. However, in the days following the resignation notice, and before retraction, there had already been enough documented activity to serve as useful reference for [where everything would go, and expectations around ownership] in the event of such a split, even when Platyna was still interested in running a TMW instance of her own.

blackrazor wrote: ↑08 Mar 2019, 11:07When was the last time Bjorn or Elven did any work on the game? Any contributions to the TMW Github? Any development at all? Any GMing? Any moderation? Any events? Any community outreach?

Firstly, inactivity does not confer ownership in any case.

Secondly, to provide the information anyway, bjorn was still reacting to events within the project. You can see bjorn (Purple) in GM logs in 2012-11-17 turning off pvp after it was accidentally left on after an event, for example. On the forums, bjorn was still removing swastikas, deleting pharmaceutical spam, reversing a ban on a user mistakenly banned by Crush (understandable and a rare mistake, as Crush was more active than every other moderator combined at the time), and individually banned seven distinct spam IPs in the months immediately preceding the move.

blackrazor wrote: ↑08 Mar 2019, 11:07So basically, you are agreeing with me. Platyna used the program, and made the data her own. Elven and Bjorn have no say.

Not at all. I am restating what I said earlier: while I do agree that any argument of the form "output can be copied because the output is GPL" is clearly invalid, as the GPL does not say anything with regards to output, similarly any argument of the form "output cannot be copied because the GPL attributes or presumes ownership of output to be the host" is also clearly invalid, as the GPL does not say anything with regards to output.

From evidence posted until evidence arises to the contrary, I do believe bjorn ran TMW's official server from eathena@ account, hosted on platinum.edu.pl, assisted by others under special case-by-case exception from Platinum ToS that Platyna did have the right to rescind at any time. Assuming no extraordinary new legal precedent that would likely upset many at sdf.org among very many other places, this would mean bjorn retained ownership of the contents of the account.

I am not interested in whether anyone believes this was rude, disrespectful, a bad decision, an unpopular decision, or other such subjective things, only that full authority to make that decision existed. Everyone must form their own opinions about subjective, emotionally charged matters to their own satisfaction.

nech wrote: ↑08 Mar 2019, 20:02 platinum became host 2007

That was surprisingly informative, in many ways! I had been under the impression that Platyna started hosting some time 2006, as that is both what the wiki article about moving new hosts stated, albiet with a "(not exactly sure)" to indicate uncertainty, and commits attributed to Platyna in tmwa-server-data ran (alongside bjorn, Elven, and others of course) from 2006-02-22 to 2008-04-17. I'm not yet sure whether I should amend that article on the wiki to note that 2017-01-17 was the correct date, as it is in the Archive: namespace for having historical relevance.

The note,

The Mana World News wrote:Notice: As of 17th of January, the server moved from animesites.de to server.themanaworld.org. We thank Ultramichy for hosting us for so long at no cost. The server is now hosted on platinum.linux.pl, a server which supports nonprofit initiatives.

does seem much more consistent with a move of hosts (and changing the domain name to something project owned rather than host owned to look more official and make future moves easier), as opposed to a fundamental change in ownership.

The implications in some of these old news articles are terrifying. To think that [the url the client was to use was once baked in], to something the project did not control.

nech wrote: ↑08 Mar 2019, 20:02meek geeks

I don't think that's entirely fair. The possibility of changing hosting has been raised many times throughout the years, and it was clear this would be no easy task, as any replacement server would have needed to withstand no small amount of DoS:

#themanaworld.chat/2009-07-06.175125+1200NZST.txt wrote: (02:57:27) wombatism1: isn't there plans to make a TMW server that can handle the average dos attacks?
(02:57:46) Rotonen: tmwserv
(02:58:00) turmfalke_: shure feel free to buy one
(02:58:14) wombatism1: how about they do another donations drive
(02:58:27) wombatism1: that's how we got the current one that Platyna uses
(02:59:18) steinex: 164515 06 -!- Irssi: Starting query in freenode with Platyna
(02:59:19) steinex: 164541 06 <steinex> i could provide a *stable* server in berlin, germany. 100mbit/s uplink. it's housed at strato, one of the biggest dc's in europe.
(02:59:21) steinex: 164618 06 <steinex> i would be totally fine to give you an account or jail on that box for you to run the server...
(02:59:54) Platyna: Account or jail while it is being ddosed and eats shitload of resources.
(03:00:27) Platyna: Like Bjorn was too poor to afford 40 euro/month for a dedic.
(03:00:39) steinex: so do you want it?
(03:00:52) steinex: i could have the shell ready in i few sec
(03:01:19) tapion: a question for the qoals patch.can QOAL know the password of the people that use his patch?
(03:01:24) wombatism1: if someone has a good server, they should run an unofficial game on it and get some credibility on realiability
(03:01:50) rod_ [ i=rodrigo1@186.12.41.125] entered the room.
(03:01:57) Rotonen: well, i don't think we're running out of potential servers
(03:02:06) Rotonen: just that platinum has by far the best terms of service
(03:02:16) Toksyuryel: What about this? http://conservancy.softwarefreedom.org/overview/
(03:02:28) Toksyuryel: Can that get us the money to pay for hosting?
(03:02:43) Rotonen: if we pay for it, we have to pay ourselves silly, really

When Kage later offered to pay for hosting himself, bjorn cited concerns for security:

#themanaworld.chat/2009-10-01.121434+1300NZDT.txt wrote: (12:59:04) Kage_Jittai: thorbjorn: like I said, I will gladly pay to have our forums hosted else where
[...]
(12:59:48) thorbjorn: Kage_Jittai: The problem at the moment is finding time to set it up and to make sure it's secure enough.

And on far too many occasions to list them all, Rotonen did praise Platyna for providing better hosting than would otherwise have been possible.

In any case, it is sometimes possible to not be interested in disagreements about subjective things and prioritize continuing to work together professionally for the good of the project.

people that I know can do better wrote:[redacted for the sake of civility]

As Jaxad would say, "...".

I do my best to not reference emotionally charged events for nearly six years, then in one moment I do post behind a spoiler with as many disclaimers and warnings as I reasonably could, and I get the feeling that I will suffer swift and lasting regret for ever doing so...

---Freeyorp

I am sorry, but when I read you declaring that you are no longer willing to host TMW, so the servivce will move with Bjorn, but that you are "interested to still host my own TMW server, since there are quite a few people who wanted a fork", I cannot believe that it is your data. When I see you invoking the Platinum terms of service against Bjorn to force him to remove Jaxad, I cannot believe that it was anything other than Bjorn's account. When I read that the TMWC did talk to Bjorn himself, and concluded that you did not own the data, I cannot believe that it is your data.

If there is something similarly clear pointing the other way that I have missed, then I will re-evaluate the balance of probabilities. Until such a time, nothing has changed from my old assessment conducted many years ago. There was nothing legally wrong (I have no interest in subjective terms, you may say rude, disrespectful, or such as much as you like, but illegal is very much signing the Rembrandt) done by the TMWC.

---Freeyorp

blackrazor wrote:three lines of contractual copyright clause (or something equivalent), placed under every GPL clause within the source files, to clearly assign ownership of the data outputs; that would have made everything so much clearer and simple and saved us all from 60+ pages of arguing, would you agree?

This is actually a pretty good example. What could go wrong with what appears to be a simple and reasonable process?

Unfortunately, copyright is not a suitable means of establishing such relationships:

Frequently Asked Questions about the GNU Licenses wrote:in general this is legally impossible; copyright law does not give you any say in the use of the output people make from their data using your program

Even if copyright was an appropriate medium for contract purposes, the GPL is a uniquely terrible license to try to add clauses to, unless you're only seeking to add a clause with one of the expressly listed effects in GPL sections 7a) - 7f), as from section 7:

GNU General Public License v3.0, § 7. Additional Terms wrote: All other non-permissive additional terms are considered “further restrictions” within the meaning of section 10. If the Program as you received it, or any part of it, contains a notice stating that it is governed by this License along with a term that is a further restriction, you may remove that term. If a license document contains a further restriction but permits relicensing or conveying under this License, you may add to a covered work material governed by the terms of that license document, provided that the further restriction does not survive such relicensing or conveying.

Oh dear. All of a sudden, our poet's seemingly reasonable series of actions to protect their work (or perhaps other seemingly reasonable actions, like assuming a hosting provider's terms of service covers the relationship between them and their host, if later found to be less than robust) has left them in a place that falls far short of the legal gold standard that they had expected and counted on. What happens then?

Fortunately for our hypothetical poet, we do not live with a legal system from Lemony Snicket novel, we live in a world with a robust legal system with broad discretion and careful jurisprudence that has evolved to justly handle the messiest of cases. Our poet will look back on their recorded interactions with their admin, and may find many pieces of evidence detailing interactions between them and their admin, showing that both parties believed, acted, and made references as if there was a valid agreement was between them. Our hypothetical court may rule that there is a contract implied in fact, from facts and circumstances that indicate a mutual intention to contract. Circumstances may exist that, according to the ordinary course of dealing and common understanding, demonstrate such an intent that is sufficient to support a finding of an implied contract. A fair court will work to ensure a fair and just outcome.

Of course, this is not to say that our poet or equivalent had a privileged position to win by default. Evidence may arise over the course of legal discovery that favours our admin instead.

In a way, it is almost a shame that the real case at question will never be heard beyond the court of public opinion (though I, and I'm sure the TMWC also, do have heartfelt gratitute for Platyna declaring that ["If Elven agreed for that I will not pursue any legal actions."], allowing the TMWC to get on with development without worrying about a negligible chance that a fair court finds they did anything technically wrong), as my inner data hoarder would have loved to have seen the interactions that were only alluded to in public, rather than merely those that spilled out into public. I assessed the situation to my satisfaction to the best of my ability many years ago, but with only one side willing to provide evidence, it would be analogous to default judgement, with all the same caveats.

It is worth repeating, I will always be interested in any new evidence or findings of fact. Anyone is welcome to contact me through any means, anonymous or otherwise. I am more than willing to treat any correspondence in the strictest confidence, should it be desired.

---Freeyorp

blackrazor wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 12:08 As an aside, who are you to decide what is "textspeak banter" and what is real intention?

That would ultimately be for the hypothetical court to decide. Perhaps an expert would be called in, as with the emoji case. Some pieces of evidence are certainly clearer than others, with Platyna's referencing the Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server to tell bjorn to evict Jaxad being made under particular gravitas.

All up, I expect that the interactions between bjorn and Platyna in particular are compelling enough for a court to find a [contract implied in fact], even in the unlikely event that the eathena@ account was otherwise found to not be owned by bjorn.

---Freeyorp

blackrazor wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 10:23 I know where you are trying to go with this.

Should I interpret this as saying that we agree that, in the original toy hypothetical, the user would own the poem? If so, should I interpret the follow up as saying, now that we have a common base to work from, we should proceed to explore the many ways in which the real situation differs, and what the implications are for ownership?

If so, as a point of order, I would like to take the time to point out that the GPL does not affirmatively do anything special with regards to output. The text of the license itself contains no such reference (besides mentioning output is not covered by the license unless it can separately be shown to be a covered work), and [the FAQ passages referenced] expressly note that copyright does not give you any say over the output of the program.

That is to say, I do agree that any argument of the form "output can be copied because the output is GPL" is clearly invalid, as the GPL does not say anything with regards to output, but I would like to note that similarly any argument of the form "output cannot be copied because the GPL attributes or presumes ownership of output to be the host" is also clearly invalid, as the GPL does not say anything with regards to output.

---Freeyorp

In this specific situation above, would you say the spf.org admins were running the programs (as they own the server, have root@, have sole discretion over their systems etc) or that Freeyorp was running the programs (as it was their actions on their user account)?

---Freeyorp

blackrazor wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 03:24 If you are running the GPL software, then the outputs belong to you, provided there are no overriding clauses. GPL provides a presumption, in the absence of any other formal claims.

I must apologise again for what must seem like pedantry, but I do want to be absolutely clear about your perspective. By "you", are you meaning the hypothetical me running the programs on my account, or are you referring to the spf.org admins, on whose machines the programs are running?

---Freeyorp

The contract that I expect to apply has already been posted above, the Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers. It is not signed, but I am glad to hear that we do agree that electronic form is fine. I do not dispute that we have not yet reached consensus that this applies to the eathena@ account.

To be clear, since I do want to make sure I am understanding you correctly, would you claim that if I signed up to an account at sdf.org, and used the GPL programs bash(1) and cat(1) to create a short poem in my home directory on sdf.org, then that hypothetical short poem would by default be owned by the sdf.org admins, barring a contract to the contrary?

---Freeyorp

blackrazor wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 02:10 P.P.S. I can play that game, too

Oh dear. This was the sort of contamination I was hoping to avoid by not citing emotionally charged events. Would you consider taking a short break, so that we may be able to better review the evidence available to us later?

---Freeyorp

Regarding the repeated requests for a written contract. While we've already seen that a court will consider the impact of a pair of adjacent emoji in a text message as evidence, you might be interested in some of the general rules surrounding validity of online evidence, and how broadly this is considered.

U.S.C. § 7001. General rule of validity wrote:(a) In general Notwithstanding any statute, regulation, or other rule of law (other than this subchapter and subchapter II), with respect to any transaction in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce—
(1) a signature, contract, or other record relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because it is in electronic form; and
(2) a contract relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because an electronic signature or electronic record was used in its formation.

Rule 1001. Definitions The Apply to This Article wrote: (a) A “writing” consists of letters, words, numbers, or their equivalent set down in any form.

You might also be interested in the [statute of frauds], which exhaustively enumerates the activities which *must* require a written and signed contract. Which activity do you believe this falls under?

blackrazor wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 02:10 misdirect by swamping us with mindless drivel

These are all pieces of evidence that a court would consider when attempting to determine ownership of the eathena@ account, and many more.

If you do not wish to consider the evidence, why are you replying?

At the very least, Platyna providing written expectation that the eathena files and forums were to go with bjorn in 2009, when she declared that she no longer wished to host the project, is certainly relevant to the interests of any fair court.

blackrazor wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 02:10 I wrote one up with minimal effort. It was only three lines of text. Was that too much work for the founder or his co-workers? Just slipped their collective minds? Trusting strangers over the internet? Lost in the mail? Eaten by dog? No contract? Too damn bad. No copyright for you!

That's quite disingenuous at best. The Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers make quite clear the rules surrounding the engagement, and hosts do not in general made individually named, written, and signed contracts for each user. I certainly have no such specific agreement with Linode for my servers, nor does TMW currently have any such individual contract with Azure.

From ~2010, I had a shell account (which is much closer to the hosted arrangement in question here, as compared to Azure providing a full VM) with wilcox-tech's public access servers, and they had a similar set of terms of service. I would certainly not expect my IRC logs (created by the irssi IRC client, which is also GPL, not that it matters, as you were the only one that seems to think TMWC believed they could copy data under GPL provisions, rather than having the blessing of bjorn, the owner of the files) to then become property of the server administrators.

You could ask the https://sdf.org/ administrators if they believe they own all the shell account data of their members, or if they made individually named, written, signed contracts for each member. If this is truly how the law works, I suspect quite a lot of people will suddenly find themselves in very unexpected situations.

blackrazor wrote: ↑07 Mar 2019, 02:10 P.S. Stop saying we agree, when we don't. I said Platyna offered hosting services (which is all you proved)

So we have established consensus on hosting in general, rather than hosting of eathena@ in particular. I'll go ahead and mentally uncheck step 2 for now.

You might notice the lack of a check on "[ ] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server apply to eathena@". With that said, I'm pretty sure that the citations of Platyna invoking those same rules with regard to the eathena@ account, both in saying she could not be sued for eathena data breach and in evicting Jaxad, would make for pretty compelling evidence in a fair court of law.

---Freeyorp

Oh, I think I finally understand!

By way of example, ircd@ was made directly by Platyna, so even though I was given shared access by similar special exception for account sharing, it would absolutely have been wrong to eg. copy ircd config and services registration database, because ircd account was not owned by TMW even though official channels were there. ircd@ was owned by Platyna. Nobody from the TMW Project pressed me to copy anything there, nor would I have done so if I had been asked. So TMW just moved their official IRC channels back to be on Freenode.

Would it be fair to say you believed that eathena@ was similarly registered to Platyna?

eathena@ was registered to bjorn, and if I remember correctly, testing@ was registered to me, and dev@ was registered to Bertram. Also if I remember correctly, I don't believe Bertram could be contacted about the move, so dev@ stayed on platinum.

If the account was not registered to bjorn, I don't really see why he would be immune to rescinding authorisation under the no-account-sharing provision, nor how he could have legitimately removed Platyna's access to eathena@ without uproar. If I had done that to ircd@ I would surely expect new iptables rules to be added to platinum servers. In any case, it is clear enough that in 2009, when Platyna declared that she no longer wished to host the project, that she expected the eathena files and forums to go with bjorn.

blackrazor wrote: ↑06 Mar 2019, 08:40 It only shows that Platinum did, among other activities, offer standard hosting arrangements

I'm glad we agree that Platinum did in general offer hosting, and that the posted terms of service accurately reflect that. So looking at the chain as a whole:

- [X] Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers provided hosting in general
- [X] Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers provided hosting for eathena@ in particular
- [ ] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server apply to eathena@
- [ ] eathena@ account was owned by bjorn, with case-by-base provision for account sharing with others that could be rescinded by Platyna
- [X] Regulations of Platinum Linux Non-profit Server state that "The administrator is not responsible for the content stored by users on their accounts, the liability for the above-mentioned bears only the user / owner of the account."
- [X] bjorn (among others) authorized the move
- [ ] Files that were on eathena@ are now owned by TMWC

Would you agree the checked boxes are an accurate summary of what we have built consensus over so far?

blackrazor wrote: ↑06 Mar 2019, 08:40 Your selective pulls are epic.

I have done my best to avoid reference to emotionally charged events for the sake of epistemic hygiene, and was mostly able to do so for the past six years. Unfortunately, it is in the most combative times that powers are unsheathed and relationships are thrown into their sharpest relief, so if we must go there, so be it. I tried.

I've attached the full log within a spoiler. I do ask everything to think twice and then to think twice again before opening, because there really are some quite nasty things in here. Remember that even John Lennon had record for domestic violence. Life is a series of trials to make us kinder people, and the internet preserving us as we grow is a relatively recent development. We must remember those we respect as they were at their best, or else be left with no role models at all.

Spoiler:

#themanaworld.chat/2009-10-01.121434+1300NZDT.txt wrote: Conversation with #themanaworld at Thu 01 Oct 2009 12:14:34 NZDT on Freeyorp@irc.freenode.net (irc)
(12:14:34) #themanaworld: The topic for #themanaworld is: The Mana World MMORPG - http://themanaworld.org - Please speak English
(12:24:11) Modanung left the room.
(12:31:06) kai_62656 [n=kai_6265@68-113-43-45.dhcp.crsn.ca.charter.com] entered the room.
(12:46:21) MadCamel1: yes.
(12:46:58) MadCamel1: Jaxad0127: could you add the analyze.php and other scripts to one of the repos?
(12:50:01) MadCamel1: go kids go!
(12:50:28) Jaxad0127: analyze is in the client repo
(12:50:31) Jaxad0127: under tools
(12:50:34) Jaxad0127: what else?
(12:51:38) MeaCulpa [n=MeaCulpa@116.224.134.52] entered the room.
(12:55:11) compiledkernel [n=compiled@99-10-224-70.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] entered the room.
(12:58:37) BaseBallBoy: jaxad i had an idea for botcheck when GMs are reinstated: http://pastebin.com/m2b7d454c
(12:58:56) BaseBallBoy: so they dont have to waste more time spawning
(13:00:03) Jaxad0127: ask the GMs
(13:00:04) Jaxad0127: not me
(13:00:11) BaseBallBoy: ask them what?
(13:00:47) Jaxad0127: about it
(13:00:52) BaseBallBoy: ok
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(13:35:15) wombatism1: http://kanyelicious.appspot.com/http:// ... aworld.org
(13:41:35) wombatism1: BaseBallBoy: you could get back to making pixelart and scripting quests
(13:42:57) wombatism1: maybe make more snowland monsters and quests?
(13:43:24) wombatism1: I dunno
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(13:43:28) BaseBallBoy: im not a very good pixeler...
(13:43:54) wombatism1: I'm gonna work on some quests myself
(13:44:08) wombatism1: I too am not a good pixelartist
(13:44:30) Galadriel1: a general comment about the 4144 patch
(13:44:30) wombatism1: okay Galadriel1
(13:44:40) Galadriel1: problems are solved when the .tmw folder in /home is renamed and the game is restarted
(13:44:58) Galadriel1: from... personal experience
(13:45:08) ***Galadriel1 rolls eyes
(13:45:18) wombatism1: what makes it different than the quol patch?
(13:45:33) Galadriel1: wow. lots
(13:45:37) wombatism1: I don't experiment with my client
(13:45:42) Galadriel1: drops can be like a carpet
(13:45:42) MrDudle: snowland monsters?
(13:45:43) wombatism1: just curious though
(13:45:52) Galadriel1: spells (i don't use) are automatic
(13:45:52) MrDudle: hmmm
(13:45:59) Galadriel1: here...
(13:46:01) wombatism1: MrDudle: there is the yeti that someone is working on
(13:46:01) MrDudle: wombatism1: how big are monsters typically px wise
(13:46:10) wombatism1: not very big
(13:46:11) Galadriel1: if you click a name in the OnLine list, it auto-opens a chat tab
(13:46:20) MrDudle: wombatism1: :S
(13:46:36) Galadriel1: pressing F in standard 0.29 shows purple blocks
(13:46:42) Galadriel1: those blocks we can't stand on
(13:47:01) MrDudle: Galadriel1: do you know big a typical pixel creature is
(13:47:05) Galadriel1: pressing F again removes all trees that block the view to fallen herbs
(13:47:17) Galadriel1: another nice feature
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(13:47:27) Galadriel1: there are too many to mention
(13:47:42) wombatism1: http://updates.themanaworld.org/tmwdata ... s/sprites/
(13:47:50) MrDudle: ty
(13:47:59) Galadriel1: MrDudle: i do not, sorry
(13:48:45) MrDudle: wombatism1: so do i need to code the pixel monsters in xml
(13:48:53) MrDudle: or do i do it in a picture program
(13:49:04) wombatism1: you could...but most pixelartists receive help with xml
(13:49:10) MrDudle: k
(13:49:18) MrDudle: so i could do the actual pixel part and then get help with xml
(13:49:42) wombatism1: yeah...but in order for it to be accepted, a dev would have to push it
(13:49:59) wombatism1: at least for the official server
(13:51:24) MrDudle: k
(13:51:54) wombatism1: if you have the capability to run your own unofficial server with updates server, you could do that yourself. TAW does that
(13:52:38) MrDudle: k
(13:54:06) wombatism1: http://www.thealternateworld.org/ always use a different password on unofficial servers.
(13:55:09) wombatism1: Galadriel1: sounds interesting...but not something I'd want to play with unless it was an official client.
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(14:06:10) Galadriel1:
(14:06:59) Freeyorp: in the latest git, drops are drawn transparently over tiles that would otherwise block the view
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(14:25:26) wombatism1: are we gathering at tulimshar?
(14:29:27) wombatism1: we are already halfway owning each other in the arena
(14:31:32) Kage_Jittai: Freeyorp: you coming?
(14:31:38) Freeyorp: One sec
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(15:24:23) wombatism1: kimbo!
(15:24:23) wombatism1: good game in pvp...mages totally pwned all
(15:26:08) Freeyorp: I killed a lot, and got killed a lot. I also happy-cursed a lot
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(15:30:48) Freeyorp: Would be nice to have a PvP ladder tournament, or something
(15:31:45) Freeyorp: Might be doable with onPCKillEvent and onPCDieEvent
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(15:42:55) wombatism1: I've got some tournament guidelines from some previous pvp events...doing a ladder with it would be cool...however I developed it before mages, so there might need to be some serious changes to them
(15:43:10) wombatism1: mages might even need their own ladder
(15:43:25) wombatism1: a lightning bolt or two is devistating
(15:44:01) Freeyorp: Well, we could see what the results are from such an event first
(15:44:17) Freeyorp: (Though PvE balancing comes first, I think.)
(15:44:54) wombatism1: yeah
(15:45:37) wombatism1: though once a pvp balance happens, it would make things a lot more interesting for pvp...a lot of the time if the character has the right balance, it is either all 1's or crit hit killing in a few strikes
(15:46:08) wombatism1: and mages still own a lot
(15:46:25) wombatism1: "magic" armor would be good for a warrior if it added some m.defence
(15:47:07) Freeyorp: I suspect many 'conventional' PvP builds still have Int set to 1, hence no M. defence
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(16:03:26) wombatism1: boo! Kimbo lost against big cuntree
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(16:20:16) wombatism1: is this rumor correct: everytime a jacko kills someone, it gets stronger
(16:21:17) Freeyorp: No
(16:21:25) wombatism1: I thought so
(16:21:34) wombatism1: that would be sweeet if it were true
(16:22:12) Freeyorp: There is something similar planned for something else, though
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(17:04:13) Anonycat: does any amount of INT even add to M. Defense right now?
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(17:51:09) Freeyorp: Back, and yes, it does
(17:51:22) Ceros_: wb
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(21:23:07) thorbjorn: Jaxad0127: I will reinstate the GMs as soon as we have had a chance to agree on some changes to the guidelines.
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(00:29:46) turmfalke: Jaxad0127: did you updated the eA server?
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(02:14:32) Jaxad0127: turmfalke: no...
(02:15:03) turmfalke: means there is still the trade bug?
(02:15:14) Jaxad0127: yeah
(02:15:24) Jaxad0127: updating eA requires a content release
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(02:28:03) turmfalke: lol..
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(02:54:10) meway: any word on sugar?
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(03:00:14) Kage_Jittai: meway: last I heard, it was not cancer but she will still require surgery
(03:02:05) meway: its good that its not cancer
(03:02:15) meway: kage what dose GPL stand for?
(03:03:21) meway: i suppose i could google it i figured someone here would wiki to me cough (...)
(03:03:25) turmfalke_: General Public License
(03:03:34) meway: lol thx turmfalke_
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(03:26:08) Platyna: Yawn.
(03:26:21) kai_62656: ;P
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(03:28:00) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: did you delete the sugarcorgit thread?
(03:40:13) Jaxad0127: which of the three are you referring to?
(03:40:26) Kage_Jittai: the one in off topic
(03:40:51) Jaxad0127: all three were
(03:40:52) Jaxad0127: see: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =12&t=8446
(03:41:32) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: your a Female dog, wolf, fox or otter, go away
(03:43:29) Platyna: )
(03:43:39) Platyna: Mine what?
(03:43:40) Platyna:
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(03:44:40) arikel: jax : how do you update the server and server data? if you don't remember, i'm trying to set up a eathena server home, and all works except the map server
(03:45:10) Jaxad0127: git pull both of them
(03:45:15) Jaxad0127: then recompile, etc
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(04:25:30) Platyna: Yaaaawn.
(04:28:28) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: keep it up, and it won't be yours much longer
(04:28:39) Platyna: Keep what up?
(04:28:40) Platyna: ;]
(04:28:56) Kage_Jittai: the bullshitting
(04:29:27) Platyna: Look, you don't like my decision, well you have a right to STFU then.
(04:29:28) Platyna:
(04:30:29) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: don't forget, it was this community who provided you with your harddrive
(04:31:07) Platyna: And I am very grateful, but it doesn't mean that my thoughts are for sale.
(04:31:08) Platyna:
(04:31:18) Platyna: I provided this community hosting for 4+ years.
(04:31:21) Platyna: So we are even.
(04:31:50) Kage_Jittai: doesn't mean you have the right to try to destroy the community
(04:31:55) Platyna: Without me arguing with Bjorn you wouldn't even have a forum.
(04:32:00) Platyna: Since they said it is useless.
(04:32:14) Platyna: Actually such people like you are destroying the community.
(04:32:30) Platyna: Community was successful and growing without pokemons and teary drama topics.
(04:32:39) Platyna: And with people who could respect moderators decisions.
(04:33:03) Kage_Jittai: w/e
(04:33:09) Platyna: Such people like you loves badwagon.
(04:33:38) Platyna: You think that arguing with me over pointless thing even if I stated rational and well thought arguments will make you a noble defender of sweet sugarcorgit?
(04:33:40) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: next pay check I get, I am asking thorbjorn if we can move our forums hosting elsewhere, Ill pay for it
(04:33:56) Platyna: Evenif sugarcorgit would die in horrible pain, after 3 months no one would remember.
(04:34:11) Platyna: This is god damn Internet, facet it and stop pretending someone you are not.
(04:34:12) Kage_Jittai: I disagree
(04:34:26) Kage_Jittai: I still remember lilo
(04:34:35) Platyna: Life goes on.
(04:34:40) Kage_Jittai: and he died what? 3 years ago
(04:34:47) Platyna: Yeah and how well you knew him?
(04:34:55) Kage_Jittai: not very well
(04:35:09) Kage_Jittai: I spoke with him maybe 5 times
(04:35:12) Platyna: And I have like 10 mbytes of logsfrom conversations with him.
(04:35:15) Platyna: So STFU.
(04:35:36) Platyna: I am now busy updating the server, make own forums and move the drama topics there.
(04:35:51) Platyna: I stated my rational behind my decision and it should be respected, even if you disagree with me.
(04:36:13) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: Free software is more about community then anything else
(04:36:16) Platyna: Not to pop here up in hope I will cry you a river when TMW hosting will be moved elsewhere or when you call me a Female dog, wolf, fox or otter.
(04:36:26) Platyna: In fact I wanted to stop host TMW.
(04:36:37) Platyna: I am still doing it only because of community voice.
(04:36:45) Platyna: And you donated something to the server?
(04:36:47) Platyna: Rather not.
(04:36:59) Platyna: You actualy contributed nothing to this project besides of mindless yapping.
(04:37:15) Platyna: I have basicaly built that community from scratch.
(04:37:25) Jaxad0127: he's been deving
(04:37:27) Platyna: When I came we had barely functional server and 5 people in peak online.
(04:37:36) Jaxad0127: and you fixed that?
(04:37:44) Platyna: And we had forums full of spam, and server who was a month down and admin who couldn't be contacted.
(04:37:52) Platyna: Jaxad0127: Yes, I did.
(04:38:17) Jaxad0127: so, only you worked on the client and server? w/e
(04:38:28) Platyna: I was a server admin and only scripts developer like 3 years before you came to be a smartass.
(04:38:44) Platyna: At least when I was handling eathena it wasn't crashing every hour.
(04:38:58) Jaxad0127: um.........
(04:39:11) Jaxad0127: you were the one that kept deleting content
(04:39:20) Platyna: Huuuuh?
(04:39:37) Platyna: Jaxad0127: I am sorry you are in this project.
(04:40:00) Jaxad0127: like the time you deleted every npc in server data
(04:40:08) Platyna: You are actualy more active writing Chocolate Cupcake on forums and IRC than actualy coding tmwserv.
(04:40:12) Platyna: Which was your first purpose.
(04:40:24) Jaxad0127: no it wasn't
(04:40:30) Platyna: I did not deleted any NPC.
(04:40:32) Platyna: It was.
(04:40:37) Platyna: You were supposed to handle it.
(04:40:50) Platyna: I remember your brilliant declaration we will finish tmwserver in a year.
(04:40:51) Jaxad0127: nope
(04:40:56) Jaxad0127: I was brout on to handle content
(04:41:00) Jaxad0127: *brought
(04:41:20) Platyna: Anyway you are wasting my time.
(04:41:20) Jaxad0127: when did I say tmwserv will be finishe din one year?
(04:41:21) Jaxad0127: *finished in
(04:41:22) Platyna: The time I could actualy use to do something useful for TMW.
(04:41:27) Jaxad0127: and you did delete the NPCs
(04:41:36) Jaxad0127: you're wasting my time too
(04:41:59) Platyna: You do nothing else in your life than wasting your time.
(04:42:09) Jaxad0127: that made no sense
(04:42:24) Platyna: Welcome on my ignore list.
(04:42:26) Platyna: BTW.
(04:42:32) Jaxad0127: you said that last time
(04:42:37) Jaxad0127: and yet you're responding to me
(04:42:49) Jaxad0127: w/e
(04:42:52) Platyna: Server rules decides that if someone is going to share ssh account they has to consult the administrator.
(04:42:58) Jaxad0127: bbl, I have class
(04:42:59) Platyna: And administrator has to accept this person.
(04:43:20) Jaxad0127: you did......
(04:43:20) Platyna: So I do not allow you to access my machine anymore.
(04:43:20) Jaxad0127: why else would I have access
(04:43:20) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: I respect you do not want personally topics on the forums, however, they are in off-topic, and we should not try to control offtopic, futher more, this is important to many people of the community
(04:43:25) Platyna: Kage_Jittai: The discussion about this topic is closed.
(04:43:50) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: ask me this was it spam?
(04:43:54) Platyna: Since you Jaxad0127 are a troll, constantly trying to abuse me, I am not sure if you will not hack my machine or fork bomb it.
(04:43:57) Platyna: So get lost.
(04:44:06) Jaxad0127: ...............
(04:44:18) Platyna: thorbjorn: Remove Jaxad0127's access to my machine please.
(04:44:34) Jaxad0127: bbl (as stated easlier)
(04:44:46) Platyna: thorbjorn: I do not trust him therefore I do not wish him to have access to any of my systems.
(04:45:42) Platyna: Not to mention no one disrespect me, except you thorbjorn, will have the access to my servers.
(04:46:10) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: your going to die a lonely death
(04:46:40) Platyna: Everyone is alone in their final hour.
(04:46:41) Platyna:
(04:47:05) compiledkernel: Kage_Jittai: thats only because God...er...well...yes...God plays on a audience too afraid to laugh at her jokes, or even want to try to understand them.
(04:47:14) compiledkernel: <yawn>
(04:51:53) kai_62656 [n=kai_6265@68-113-43-45.dhcp.crsn.ca.charter.com] entered the room.
(04:54:39) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: you know your Chocolate Cupcake stinks as much as anyone's else
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(04:56:11) turmfalke_: o_0
(04:56:50) turmfalke_: why can't you get along with each other and try to discuss without cursewords or other attacks?
(04:56:51) compiledkernel: Kage_Jittai: You should know that the secret to being boring , is to say everything. That has certainly been the case here.
(04:58:07) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: the only reason why you can't stand the post about sugarcorgit, is that someone else is getting attention and sympathy, and your a god damn sociopath
(04:58:24) turmfalke_: umpf..
(04:58:33) ***kai_62656 agrees with Kage_Jittai
(04:59:52) ***wombatism1 agrees w/ turmfalke_
(05:00:01) turmfalke_: Kage_Jittai: and what do you gain from calling Platyna a sociopath?
(05:00:23) ***MaienM sighs and thinks people here should behave as adults instead of 8 yr olds
(05:00:31) ***kai_62656 sigh
(05:00:43) Kage_Jittai: turmfalke_: it is what she is
(05:00:54) turmfalke_: and does that changes anything?
(05:01:09) turmfalke_: or do you think you told her something you with that?
(05:01:29) turmfalke_: *new
(05:01:49) turmfalke_: after all a sociopath is still a human
(05:01:54) kai_62656: lol
(05:02:02) compiledkernel: Kage_Jittai: Id have to disaggree with you. A sociopath feels feelings , even if only utterly cynical to themselves, and has no remorse for their actions. While this may be true in this case, I think the person in quesiotn is more guilty of Dissociative aspects of such a disoder.
(05:02:04) turmfalke_: and there are worse things when beeing a sociopath
(05:02:17) Kage_Jittai: turmfalke_: no, I honestly thinks she needs therapy
(05:02:34) compiledkernel: DPD is quite a bit worse than being an outright Sociopath
(05:02:40) turmfalke_: and you think she will take one cause you called her a sociopath?
(05:03:35) compiledkernel: and commonly involves Psychotic behaviours, or actually full breaks with reality.
(05:04:46) turmfalke_: Kage_Jittai: for me it looks like your only intention was to hurt her and as we know Platyna she won't break from something like that
(05:05:22) Kage_Jittai: turmfalke_: when I was diagnosed with being boredline personality disorder, I was quite happy because I was able to get therapy for it. For someone else also suffering from a personality disorder, I would advise her to get help.
(05:06:06) turmfalke_: then do it in a more friendly way and not in the middle of a discussion
(05:07:06) thorbjorn: Platyna: Please stop deleting posts about sugarcorgit.
(05:09:35) kai_62656: yes
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(05:11:09) Kage_Jittai: I need a swim
(05:11:10) Kage_Jittai: BBL
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(05:51:02) wombatism1: is there a reason the mouboo death animation is different? On my computer, the eyes spin around, on my cousin's the mouboo spins its entire body in a circle.
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(05:52:01) Jaxad0127: he must have customdata
(05:52:12) Jaxad0127: as tmwdata has spinning eyes
(05:52:44) wombatism1: it was a new download off the main site because he had to fix his os
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(05:53:30) Jaxad0127: so?
(05:53:37) wombatism1: so it isn't custom
(05:53:45) Jaxad0127: unless his .tmw directory had to be rebuilt, he could still have customdata
(05:53:52) Jaxad0127: did it download updates?
(05:53:57) wombatism1: yes
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(05:54:30) Jaxad0127: comp info?
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(05:56:36) wombatism1: he doesn't know
(05:56:47) wombatism1: I'll get back with you on that one
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(08:25:21) meway: wtf?
(08:26:00) meway: Kage_Jittai: whats up? ^
(08:26:14) Kage_Jittai: ?
(08:26:20) doorsman: 1we should ask you that question meway
(08:26:20) meway: platyna deleted what?
(08:26:32) Jaxad0127: plenty of things from the forums
(08:26:38) doorsman: <meway> wtf? < whats up
(08:26:43) Jaxad0127: mostly stuff that disagrees with her
(08:26:51) meway: doorsman?
(08:26:58) meway: english plz...
(08:27:00) doorsman: meway : feel free to ask Platyna herself
(08:27:16) doorsman: sry, i dont speak ingles very well
(08:27:17) meway: platyna wtf!? (better doors?)
(08:27:25) meway: lol
(08:27:38) doorsman: wait for her to answer, you'll see if its better
(08:27:46) ***doorsman ducks and runs
(08:28:04) ***Kage_Jittai kisses meway good bye then joins doorsman
(08:28:09) ***meway o.0 hides behind doors
(08:28:25) doorsman: lol Kage_Jittai
(08:28:31) doorsman: nice one
(08:28:55) doorsman: im already hiding meway, dont try to hide behind me
(08:29:12) ***Jaxad0127 uses the invisibility cloak
(08:29:33) ***meway hops on his server and @invisable
(08:30:11) meway: this command dose not work for some reason XD better check the spelling
(08:30:24) doorsman: invisable ?
(08:30:36) doorsman: and you were asking me to talk english ?
(08:30:40) doorsman: rofl
(08:30:51) meway: lol mine is not as good as yours 0.o rofl
(08:31:09) doorsman: we are all witnesses of that meway ^^
(08:31:27) meway: c(=
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(08:34:07) meway: ahh katze quiter
(08:34:25) meway: lol jk
(08:35:03) meway: so anymore word on sugar?
(08:35:28) meway: or just that its not cancer
(08:36:15) Jaxad0127: that's all I've heard
(08:36:27) meway: k
(08:37:29) meway: working on some icon ideas for the magic thing i dont know if they will be relevent.
(08:39:56) meway: i cant find that were was it at? anyone have an idea just off hand
(08:40:36) Jaxad0127: which one?
(08:40:46) meway: skill window
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(08:45:12) Acegi: Actually speaking of icon ideas
(08:45:29) Acegi: How about one for when slow healing (food, items, spells)
(08:45:32) Jaxad0127: meway: forums
(08:45:37) Jaxad0127: Acegi: go ahead
(08:46:08) Acegi: Oh I was just suggesting it lol haven't thought about what they might be.
(08:46:19) Acegi: I think you knew that though.
(08:46:30) Jaxad0127: meway: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8265
(08:47:04) meway: tx Jaxad0127
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(09:11:23) Platyna: ?
(09:11:42) Platyna: thorbjorn: I will. I posted why.
(09:11:58) Platyna: thorbjorn: And I never had hopes you will want to understand my reasoning.
(09:12:05) Platyna: thorbjorn: As you usualy never do.
(09:12:42) Platyna: thorbjorn: And I don't want Jaxad0127 to have access to my servers.
(09:13:00) Platyna: thorbjorn: Hate me or love me, I don't trust him.
(09:13:43) Platyna: thorbjorn: I am tired of you treating me on public like a piece of Chocolate Cupcake.
(09:14:01) Platyna: Long years ago people would accept my wise decision and bash the troll.
(09:14:15) Platyna: thorbjorn: You are making our community a pokemon cave.
(09:15:07) Platyna: And you people are jackassess, no one remembers when I argued with thorbjorn, who is stubborn like a donkey for sugarcorgit.
(09:15:21) Platyna: It shows how bloody sensitive you are.
(09:15:23) Platyna: Idiots.
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(09:17:39) Bertram: Sounds like I missed a war again. Platyna, you should do that kind of thing in privacy. (Just a piece of advice you will throw away, but I had to say it, at least once.)
(09:18:09) Platyna: In privacy thorbjorn ignores me.
(09:18:13) Platyna: And just gives me orders.
(09:18:40) Platyna: Anyway screw it. The only real problem I have now is this:
(09:18:41) Platyna: boadicea:/home/platyna$ glxinfo | grep direct
(09:18:41) Platyna: direct rendering: No (If you want to find out why, try setting LIBGL_DEBUG=verbose)
(09:18:58) Platyna: And then when I solve it, I am back to play Regnum Online.
(09:19:12) Platyna: At least there are no ungrateful jackassess telling me how to do the job I did 4 years.
(09:19:27) Bertram: Platyna: I wouldn't
(09:19:41) Bertram: Even being sysadmin myself...
(09:19:55) Platyna: And emo children complaining that they can't weep on public RPG GAME forum after some person they don't even really know.
(09:19:59) Bertram: You sure are better than me, anyway.
(09:20:20) Bertram: the stroke thread, isn' it?
(09:20:25) Platyna: Being sysadmin is not measurable, untill you are completly pathetic.
(09:20:38) Bertram: Well, then I must be
(09:20:40) Platyna: So if you do your job that everything works, you are as good.
(09:20:50) Bertram: or lucky
(09:21:05) Platyna: I do not want to hear flattery, untill someone acts like thorbjorn and his little helpers.
(09:22:28) Bertram: My job is to run after other's mistake, but anyway, I'm not here to flatter. I'm here to try to, well, in fact, I don't know myself...
(09:22:50) Platyna: "[drm] Failed to open DRM device for : No such file or directory"
(09:22:50) Platyna: For christ sake I bloody hate udev and hal.
(09:22:58) Bertram: Acess or file not there...
(09:23:13) Platyna: Yeah.
(09:23:55) Bertram: weird anyway. Shouldn't be that hard to use a drm file, even for udev.
(09:24:05) Bertram: How did the problem happen?
(09:24:46) Platyna: If I knew I would fix it.
(09:24:58) Bertram: an upgrade?
(09:25:09) wombatism1 [n=Wombat@d60-65-212-203.col.wideopenwest.com] entered the room.
(09:25:26) Platyna: Newest OS>
(09:25:45) Bertram: ah. Ubuntu or something hotter?
(09:25:53) Platyna: Slackware 13.0
(09:25:56) Platyna: Which sux ass.
(09:26:34) Bertram: Slackware. Ok, we're not gonna sleep before hours ;D
(09:27:05) Platyna: 12.2 worked fine.
(09:28:18) Bertram: What is your video card?
(09:29:34) Bertram: have you installed this package: libgl1-mesa-dri ?
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(09:31:18) Platyna: intel.
(09:31:20) Platyna: Yes Bertram.
(09:31:30) Platyna: I know you are one of old nice people here and you want to help me.
(09:31:40) Platyna: But for christ sake. I would check this stuff first.
(09:31:46) Bertram: Thanks for the "old" nice
(09:32:44) Bertram: Platyna: Never be just behind an admin when (s)he's taking his/her coffee, or trying to resolve a problem, eh.
(09:37:45) Jaxad0127: 20:12 < Platyna> thorbjorn: I am tired of you treating me on public like a piece of Chocolate Cupcake.
(09:37:51) Jaxad0127: we're tired of that treatment from you
(09:38:39) Bertram: dlopen /usr/X11R6/lib/modules/dri/i915_dri.so failed <- have you got this?
(09:44:07) Bertram: Damn evening.
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(10:07:15) thorbjorn: I don't recall threatening Platyna.
(10:13:28) Bertram: thorbjorn: <Platyna> thorbjorn: I will. I posted why.
(10:14:21) thorbjorn: Well I have no time for that now.
(10:14:24) Bertram: Got no other clue... :/
(10:14:45) Bertram: I understand.
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(12:45:27) Platyna: Rawrrr.
(12:46:09) Platyna: thorbjorn: treating and threating are two different words. ;.
(12:46:22) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: are you a sociopath?
(12:46:27) Kage_Jittai: if so, please get help
(12:46:29) Platyna: Yes.
(12:46:29) Kage_Jittai: quickly
(12:46:32) Platyna: No.
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(12:46:40) Platyna: I love me being a sociopath.
(12:47:04) Kage_Jittai: life for you can be so much better though
(12:47:18) Kage_Jittai: imagine, people actually liking you
(12:47:21) Platyna: I prefer a sociopath than some emo being pissed that he can't weep on online gaming forum.
(12:47:40) Platyna: And if you actualy had a life you wouldn't sit here all day and look to harass me.
(12:47:48) Platyna: In fact I am mistress of not caring.
(12:48:09) Jaxad0127: you're the one that always starts teh harassment
(12:48:15) Platyna: In 2 minutes I will download what I am downloading and guess what?
(12:48:37) Platyna: I know you think it is impossible but I will not use irc for like 2 hours.
(12:48:48) Platyna: 01:27 seconds
(12:49:32) Platyna: And BTW Kage_Jittai, actualy people were demanding me to be a moderator and a GM again. So looks they love sociopaths.
(12:49:32) Platyna: Mwahaha.
(12:49:54) Platyna: 11 seconds
(12:49:56) Kage_Jittai: I thought you didn't want to be a moderator / GM?
(12:50:03) BaseBallBoy1: Bye P!
(12:50:04) BaseBallBoy1: =P
(12:50:06) Platyna: Hooray.
(12:50:31) Platyna: Kage_Jittai: I loved it. However thorbjorn since about a year knows everythingbetter about community management.
(12:50:34) Platyna: Adios.
(12:52:20) thorbjorn: I've always known things better, of course.
(12:52:52) salmondine: really platyna, sugar is in intensive care
(12:53:55) BaseBallBoy1: thorbjorn FTW! =P
(12:53:56) salmondine: not like we have 10,000 people playing
(12:54:45) salmondine: we are a close group, I talked to dave on phone yesterday
(12:55:01) salmondine: I was appalled that forum post was deleted
(12:55:54) salmondine: hey its your forum, we did start a new one where this can be discussed
(12:57:07) salmondine: http:grou.ps/players_of_the_mana_world
(12:58:07) thorbjorn: Hmm, not connecting here.
(12:58:34) Kage_Jittai: http://grou.ps/players_of_the_mana_world/home
(12:58:48) salmondine: yes sorry
(12:59:04) Kage_Jittai: thorbjorn: like I said, I will gladly pay to have our forums hosted else where
(12:59:20) Kage_Jittai: where.... SOMEONE... can try to destroy the communit
(12:59:22) Kage_Jittai: where.... SOMEONE... can try to destroy the community*
(12:59:39) salmondine: dave did make a post today
(12:59:48) thorbjorn: Kage_Jittai: The problem at the moment is finding time to set it up and to make sure it's secure enough.
(13:00:17) BaseBallBoy1: salmondine: why dont you just set up a forum at freeforums.org ?
(13:00:27) salmondine: I mean good god, it was in off topic
(13:00:37) salmondine: done bbb
(13:00:59) BaseBallBoy1: OMG
(13:01:02) BaseBallBoy1: PODLING!
(13:01:28) BaseBallBoy1: i totally forgot it was u!
(13:01:28) salmondine: same
(13:01:45) BaseBallBoy1: done what?
(13:01:50) BaseBallBoy1: (06:58:28 PM) salmondine: done bbb
(13:02:22) salmondine: scroll up web address is there
(13:02:54) BaseBallBoy1: i guess you missed the "freeforums.org" part
(13:03:29) salmondine: well it is the new free forums format
(13:03:52) salmondine: I think anyway pixie set it up
(13:05:33) BaseBallBoy1: ah
(13:13:16) ***thorbjorn managed to get his unread email count below 200 again. Yay!
(13:13:23) thorbjorn: Time for bed.
(13:13:33) Ceros_X: night
(13:14:17) salmondine: lol
(13:14:29) Kage_Jittai: thorbjorn: stay up for another 2 hours you can say good night to me for once
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---Freeyorp

The agreement under which Platinum Linux Non-profit Servers then hosted the TMW Project can be found on [the internet archive].

Translated, the agreement reads:

Regulations of the platinum.linux.pl server wrote:
Using the server platinum.linux.pl means acceptance of the regulations.

The user agrees to login any of his actions on the server. As well as agreeing to receive letters (email) from the administrator.

The personal data of the user made available to the administrator will not be used for marketing purposes.

The administrator tries to ensure the best possible operation of the server, however, the user accepts the service "as it is", which means that the administrator is not liable for any damage resulting from its non-functioning.

The administrator is not responsible for the content stored by users on their accounts, the liability for the above-mentioned bears only the user / owner of the account.

No abuse of any service on this server.

The administrator defines the word abuse.

The administrator has the right to change these regulations without first informing users about this fact.

The use of this server's services to make life difficult for other network users, post immoral and / or offensive content for any persons or values and is contrary to applicable law is FORBIDDEN.

One session for a given IRC network (IRCNet, EFNet, IFNet etc.). No bots, BNCs, programs interfering with IRC servers and / or platinum server. The IRC client must respond correctly to the CTCP.

All comments, bug reports and other server-related matters are accepted by the administrator only via e-mail, other forms of transmission of this information will be ignored.

The administrator is not a teacher or a nanny. If you want to use this server you must have basic UNIX messages. The system is mostly polonized (including man), so using it should not be a problem, if (and only if) it turns out to be insufficient you can contact the administrator on # Linux-Slackware on IRCNET.

It is also forbidden to any activities aimed at violating the server's security, thus acquiring powers other than those set by the administrator (for experts: exploits, etc.). If you think that it is possible to acquire rights other than those determined immediately, please inform the administrator by email. The breach of server security is also having simple to guess passwords such as: login.data_urodzenia, etc.

Using the account for commercial purposes is not prohibited, provided that the administrator is to be informed of this fact and the nature of the business. This activity must be legal within the meaning of the law in force in Poland, the administrator has the right to refuse to use the account for commercial purposes without giving reasons. If the user derives financial benefits from his account, the administrator counts on giving the platinum.linux.pl server a small part of them in the form of a donation or other, previously agreed with the administrator, material benefits for the project.

Sharing the account with third parties is prohibited.

Unused accounts will be blocked and deleted after some time.

Failure to comply with the above ends, of course, userdel -r.

The most interesting thing about this agreement is "Sharing the account with third parties is prohibited". As dealing with the unfortunately frequent incidents around the TMW Project could not be run by a single admin, Platyna needed to grant special exception for each additional administrator.

This became very relevant late 2009. As I understand it, this was the first time when powers from the hosting role were used to defend actions made under the moderator role. For context, sugarcorgit, a longstanding and prominent member of the community, was critically ill and in intensive care, so many players (and developers) sought to pass on their best wishes. Platyna (with full authority as moderator to do so) decided that these threads, and all duplicates, were to be removed, [with an appropriate thread laying out her rationale for doing so] (eg. PMs could be more appropriate).

This was not a popular decision, but she did have full authority to make that decision. This resulted in many angry comments back and forth, ending with Platyna /ignoring Jaxad, rescinding her approval for bjorn to share the eathena account with Jaxad, and indicating that she would use this clause to ensure that anyone (besides bjorn of course) that disrespected her would no longer be able to act as service administrator.

#themanaworld.chat/2009-10-01.121434+1300NZDT.txt" wrote: [...]
(04:42:24) Platyna: Welcome on my ignore list.
(04:42:26) Platyna: BTW.
(04:42:32) Jaxad0127: you said that last time
(04:42:37) Jaxad0127: and yet you're responding to me
(04:42:49) Jaxad0127: w/e
(04:42:52) Platyna: Server rules decides that if someone is going to share ssh account they has to consult the administrator.
(04:42:58) Jaxad0127: bbl, I have class
(04:42:59) Platyna: And administrator has to accept this person.
(04:43:20) Jaxad0127: you did......
(04:43:20) Platyna: So I do not allow you to access my machine anymore.
(04:43:20) Jaxad0127: why else would I have access
(04:43:20) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: I respect you do not want personally topics on the forums, however, they are in off-topic, and we should not try to control offtopic, futher more, this is important to many people of the community
(04:43:25) Platyna: Kage_Jittai: The discussion about this topic is closed.
(04:43:50) Kage_Jittai: Platyna: ask me this was it spam?
(04:43:54) Platyna: Since you Jaxad0127 are a troll, constantly trying to abuse me, I am not sure if you will not hack my machine or fork bomb it.
(04:43:57) Platyna: So get lost.
(04:44:06) Jaxad0127: ...............
(04:44:18) Platyna: thorbjorn: Remove Jaxad0127's access to my machine please.
(04:44:34) Jaxad0127: bbl (as stated easlier)
(04:44:46) Platyna: thorbjorn: I do not trust him therefore I do not wish him to have access to any of my systems.
(04:45:42) Platyna: Not to mention no one disrespect me, except you thorbjorn, will have the access to my servers.
[...]
(09:11:23) Platyna: ?
(09:11:42) Platyna: thorbjorn: I will. I posted why.
(09:11:58) Platyna: thorbjorn: And I never had hopes you will want to understand my reasoning.
(09:12:05) Platyna: thorbjorn: As you usualy never do.
(09:12:42) Platyna: thorbjorn: And I don't want Jaxad0127 to have access to my servers.
(09:13:00) Platyna: thorbjorn: Hate me or love me, I don't trust him.
(09:13:43) Platyna: thorbjorn: I am tired of you treating me on public like a piece of Chocolate Cupcake.
(09:14:01) Platyna: Long years ago people would accept my wise decision and bash the troll.
(09:14:15) Platyna: thorbjorn: You are making our community a pokemon cave.
(09:15:07) Platyna: And you people are jackassess, no one remembers when I argued with thorbjorn, who is stubborn like a donkey for sugarcorgit.
(09:15:21) Platyna: It shows how bloody sensitive you are.
(09:15:23) Platyna: Idiots.
(09:17:39) Bertram: Sounds like I missed a war again. Platyna, you should do that kind of thing in privacy. (Just a piece of advice you will throw away, but I had to say it, at least once.)
(09:18:09) Platyna: In privacy thorbjorn ignores me.
(09:18:13) Platyna: And just gives me orders.

I hope that this helps clarify the then relationship between the host and the project, and how the relationship gave the host leverage in a capacity that is normally unusual for hosts to have over a project.

---Freeyorp

blackrazor wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 16:26fundamentally I believe ownership of the Platinum data files (not the project, just the data files!) rests with Platyna

Then we're back to [observing that the data files were to go with Bjorn, with Platyna looking to make a fork of her own].

blackrazor wrote: ↑03 Mar 2019, 16:26You are the expert of sieving through the historical record for the exact time and place of the quote, so I leave that as an exercise for you

If there is nothing to add that may break the impasse, then there is nothing further to say.

---Freeyorp

Ownership is, as was pointed out last time, the central impasse. Almost all of your other statements assume that Platyna was the owner, to varying extents. If you do have evidence for this, please do present it. While assertions are nice, in that they can help clarify a position, it's important to keep in mind that merely repeating an assertion does not alone make it true.

Regarding further instances of the representative heuristic (things that X does/does not do), it's important to note that Platyna was more than host: she was also a moderator, briefly a developer, and later lead moderator. The historical record is quite clear about her positions each step of the way; nech rightly pointed out that her forum rank was Moderator circa 2007, though they were incorrect to say that she was reinstated as Lead Moderator by Elven (2009-10-29), as Bjorn gave her full forum "founder" access on 2009-07-06 (though Elven's blessing certainly cemented that position). Moderation being her absolute demesne, absolute monarchy, or dictatorship as you prefer, as I understand it the GMs were rather not happy with working under her at the time.

I'm not sure how you can claim that as there was no written procedure for resigning, therefore a resignation is just empty words. A host stating she's not going to host anymore - or other resignations in other contexts - seems like a pretty clear statement, and there was real activity each time to reinforce that. Her "resignation as TMW host." was already mentioned above, but Bjorn had previously also stripped her of her eA admin access after her previous "Platyna has left the building." resignation.

For reference, and further evidence, here's Rotonen asking Platyna (with her nick at the time set to Blah) to update the server on 2009-01-06 - three months in - and her refusing, pointing him at bjorn instead:

#tmwdev.2009-01-06.log wrote: [2009-01-06 02:27:28] <Rotonen> blasted, forgot the drop protection change
[2009-01-06 02:29:45] <Jaxad0127> me too
[2009-01-06 02:29:57] <Rotonen> hmm, actually
[2009-01-06 02:29:57] <Rotonen> let's see if the community catches that one by themselves
[2009-01-06 02:29:57] <Rotonen> we should probably also have a hidden change every time too
[2009-01-06 02:36:49] <Rotonen> Blah: git pull server data pretty please
[2009-01-06 02:37:53] <Blah> Go away. b_lindeijer is the admin of ea.
[2009-01-06 02:38:05] <Blah> He stripped me of all my rights on ea.
[2009-01-06 02:38:06] <Blah> ;]
[2009-01-06 02:39:07] <Rotonen> k
[2009-01-06 02:39:49] <Rotonen> so we're going to have to do this by the book then
[2009-01-06 02:45:05] <Blah> Huh?
[2009-01-06 02:45:06] <Blah> ;>
[2009-01-06 02:45:30] <Jaxad0127> ?
[2009-01-06 02:46:06] <Rotonen> Blah: well, you do have root on the box so you could basically just do anything ;>
[2009-01-06 02:48:38] <Blah> hx m f u cn
[2009-01-06 02:48:40] <Blah> ;>
[2009-01-06 02:49:02] <Rotonen> yeah, so going by the official venue

Pretty clear statements, aside from the final textspeak banter telling Rotonen to "hack me if you can". Emphasis drawn to "b_lindeijer is the admin of ea". As host, she could have abused root to break in, but was responsible enough not to.

---Freeyorp

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