Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

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WildX
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Re: Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

Post by WildX » 10 Mar 2013, 18:21

argul wrote:
Matt wrote:I just read "senior developers" in the first post and had a good laugh because of that.
How would you phrase "bjorn, elven, freeyorp and crush" in short? not sure what's funny about that.
Jenalya wrote:This decision was made unanimously by the game masters, senior developers and server admins of tmw.
Additionally we contacted former developers and admins, as Bjorn, Crush, Freeyorp and Elven
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Re: Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

Post by argul » 10 Mar 2013, 18:43

sorry was sleepy when reading that post again.

I accept to be trolled by Matt successfully now.
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Re: Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

Post by Matt » 10 Mar 2013, 21:12

The first two may count as one of them, but it does not sound like they were an active part of the decision ;)
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My concerns regarding the server move

Post by blackrazor » 13 Mar 2013, 05:46

First, I want to thank everyone who has contributed to TMW, and this is not intended as an attack in any way, to anyone. I want to get away from any personal stuff, and focus on specific concerns regarding the server move itself. I also want to thank Jenalya for making http://forums.themanaworld.org/download ... p?id=10563 available so that players can have some information on recent developments.

My two main concerns, not directly addressed in that text (or elsewhere, to the best of my search abilities) are as follows:

1) The way this move was handled sets a poor precedent for how future log-jams between top admins (with save-file access) will be handled. What guarantees do we have, that in the future, if top admins find themselves in a similar position, that one will not take recent events as precedent, and preemptively make off with the save-files and start a new game iteration with them?

What this game needs is a clear constitution, definitively outlining the ownership of the savefiles, and the specific procedures for allowing them to move or undergo a change of access, if need be. And also a clear procedure for impeaching or demoting a top admin, if need be.

2) The new server is a paid service, hosted by a for-profit professional hosting company, and the costs are being donated by an anonymous member of the TMW community.

My concerns here are twofold. I feel that having our project hosted by a paid for-profit company goes in the wrong direction for a totally free open-source game. Also, if our anonymous benefactor one day decides to no longer pay for this service, then what is our "Plan B" ? Who will host us if the money stops flowing? Will the game transition to a freemium model to continue to pay for the professional hosting, if an alternative cannot be found?

I feel that what this game needs is a freely offered service, in line with the free model of the game, that guarantees that it will remain free and available, completely independent of the decisions of a single (however generous) person.

Sometimes, a community has no choice but to accept certain realities, certain risks, as they are inherent in all things in life. But these specific risks are things that we directly brought upon ourselves by taking specific actions. I do not want this thread to devolve over the right or wrong of those specific actions, but I would please prefer if we focus on addressing, and hopefully alleviating these concerns.

Please, if anyone has other concerns specifically regarding the move and transition, I encourage you to make them known, as well. The admins cannot know of our concerns, unless we voice them, and that is our responsibility.

P.S. Edit: According to the text-log Jen posted, this is the company hosting our iteration of TMW: http://www.hetzner.de/en/ They are located in Germany, but have webpages in other languages, including English, so please feel to look them up and form your own opinions.
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Re: My concerns regarding the server move

Post by o11c » 13 Mar 2013, 06:14

I'm not sure if I can address *all* of your concerns, but:
blackrazor wrote: 1) The way this move was handled sets a poor precedent for how future log-jams between top admins (with save-file access) will be handled. What guarantees do we have, that in the future, if top admins find themselves in a similar position, that one will not take recent events as precedent, and preemptively make off with the save-files and start a new game iteration with them?
As I see it, a move is legitimate if, and only if, Elven moves the domain name to point to the new server. Note that Elven has the same access to the current server as we do.

Of course, we don't anticipate actually running into this. See the post that hasn't been posted yet for how we choose server admins.
blackrazor wrote: 2) The new server is a paid service, hosted by a for-profit professional hosting company, and the costs are being donated by an anonymous member of the TMW community.

My concerns here are twofold. I feel that having our project hosted by a paid for-profit company goes in the wrong direction for a totally free open-source game. Also, if our anonymous benefactor one day decides to no longer pay for this service, then what is our "Plan B" ? Who will host us if the money stops flowing? Will the game transition to a freemium model to continue to pay for the professional hosting, if an alternative cannot be found?

I feel that what this game needs is a freely offered service, in line with the free model of the game, that guarantees that it will remain free and available, completely independent of the decisions of a single (however generous) person.
The fact that the server is hosted in a professional facility is a *good* thing - they're professionals providing a service for us. There's no such thing as a "free service".
Note that the company who owns the facility makes no claim of ownership over our virtual machine ...

As for actually paying for the service, we have at least two fallback plans. I hope you'll forgive me if I'm a bit vague there - I'm not sure how much I should say. But we don't anticipate using either.

It is well-documented that The Mana World will never switch to a freemium (or worse) model.
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Re: My concerns regarding the server move

Post by Crush » 13 Mar 2013, 08:37

blackrazor wrote:I feel that what this game needs is a freely offered service, in line with the free model of the game, that guarantees that it will remain free and available, completely independent of the decisions of a single (however generous) person.
TMWs hosting always was completely dependent of the decisions of a single (however generous) person. Now it's someone else.

The paid service model even gives more security, because when that person should decide to stop supporting TMW, someone else can pay the bills. And virtual machines on hetzner are pretty cheap.
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Re: Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

Post by Platyna » 13 Mar 2013, 08:44

You forgot to mention that o11c is not an owner of that hosting, and none of TMW developers. He just got a vhost from "a friend" - a person completely not related to TMW.

So now the host is a person who can't afford their own hosting, and uses someone else dedicated server which probably has limited bandwidth, therefore first DDoS will cause it to be closed and the files removed - because you have to pay for all extra transfer.

So basically it is fragile and uncertain setup.

Regards.
Zuzanna K. Filutowska
[The rest of this signature was censored by TMWC's "Freedom" and "Free speech".]
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Re: My concerns regarding the server move

Post by blackrazor » 13 Mar 2013, 13:33

Crush wrote:
blackrazor wrote:I feel that what this game needs is a freely offered service, in line with the free model of the game, that guarantees that it will remain free and available, completely independent of the decisions of a single (however generous) person.
TMWs hosting always was completely dependent of the decisions of a single (however generous) person. Now it's someone else.

The paid service model even gives more security, because when that person should decide to stop supporting TMW, someone else can pay the bills. And virtual machines on hetzner are pretty cheap.
That was why I suggested a constitution going forward. So that the rights to move or change access to the save-files would be clearly defined, as would ownership of any donated machine, and the precise mechanism to impeach or demote top admins with save-file access.

A paid service is not necessarily better. If it was, we could all prefer a flashy expensive game made by a for-profit company, and available only on a for-profit operating system such as Microsoft Windows. But that is not in keeping with the spirit of this game. Also, as others have said, after your first ddos attack (or other unexpected issues), you may find yourself with a huge bandwidth surcharge, or with throttled bandwidth, or disconnected entirely. Paid and professional is not always better, which I think was one of the founding principles behind TMW.

EDIT: A for-profit company has only one goal and one loyalty, the maximized earning of profits (money). Especially if they are "cheap" in price, they will have little leeway, and will surcharge, throttle, or drop you the moment your bandwidth becomes too expensive for them to earn their expected profit off of you. They have zero loyalty to the concepts of open-source software, GPL licencing, free MMO games, or other nice things that many of us believe in and that motivate us. They care only for profit, so be careful, because if the profit for them isn't enough, they will make sure we all feel it.
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Re: Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

Post by Platyna » 13 Mar 2013, 14:33

Platinum also is located in profesional facility, but the difference is that at least I am the owner of that machine and it is a machine, with unlimited bandwidth, not a virtual host, made by someone we don't even know (not o11c) on their dedicated server.

So you basically changed the better for the worse.

But well, we all know it wasn't about the machine, it was just to kick me off.

Regards.
Zuzanna K. Filutowska
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Re: Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

Post by blackrazor » 13 Mar 2013, 17:05

I will humbly suggest, without having spoken to any of the main people involved, but by way of compromise, that since:

1) Platyna's machine is real (not virtual), and

2) even may be upgraded over the summer, and

3) that the lag was never shown to be caused by her machine nor network, that:

Perhaps the current TMW Committee, along with Platyna, Elven, and Bjorn, might be persuaded to work together on a new constitution going forward, that clearly lays out the ground rules for any changes to save-file access, ownership of physical hardware, and the mechanism for impeachment or demotion of top admins (those with save-file access).

If that can prove fruitful, then perhaps Platyna's hosting solution, especially after the hardware upgrades that were mentioned for the summer, might prove to be our optimal hosting solution.

I would suppose that the new constitution, if acceptable to all, would contain a more equitable sharing of powers between the top admins, and precise mechanisms for an orderly transition, in order to avoid all this messiness in the future.

That would be my hope and recommendation, if everyone else was onboard with it, too.
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Re: Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

Post by Ablu » 13 Mar 2013, 17:09

For me the server is really awesome regarding lags. I had no lags so far. On the old one it was barely possible to play without getting depressed by the lag.
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Re: Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

Post by Platyna » 13 Mar 2013, 17:35

Ablu wrote:For me the server is really awesome regarding lags. I had no lags so far. On the old one it was barely possible to play without getting depressed by the lag.
If so, it is not because machine but because Frost did some work to fix duplicated packets but (read his diagnostics thread instead of believing in obvious nonsense).

Regards.
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Re: Relocation of the Mana World Services - March 9th 2013

Post by Ablu » 13 Mar 2013, 18:09

Sorry. I do not know how he fixed it. But it seems to be finally fixed. Since the code on the server did not change it looks like it was not possible to fix on the old server!

Good job Frost!

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Re: TMW organization structure - TMW Committee

Post by BoomerTheKran » 14 Mar 2013, 00:35

This is a step in the right direction. As for "undisclosed location," anyone with traceroute can find it.
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Re: TMW organization structure - TMW Committee

Post by Big Crunch » 14 Mar 2013, 00:36

BoomerTheKran wrote:This is a step in the right direction. As for "undisclosed location," anyone with traceroute can find it.
The hosting company is not undisclosed, just the person who is paying for the hosting services.

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