Court House forum should be closed

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Piki
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Court House forum should be closed

Post by Piki »

I do not see a point to there being a Court House forum, based on this quote by Prsm:
i have to lock this thread, if a GM isnt there to witness it, we cant act on it, sorry for that!
Here are the problems:
If a GM is present, he/she can deal with the problem on the spot, instead of waiting for a report
If someone involved is inapropriately banned, he/she can email
There aren't enough GMs to cover EVERY area of the game 24/7 -- I rarely see any GMs anyway, so hardly anyting will get taken care of anyways.

Arguments against Prsm's statement:
There isn't anything posted in the rules or Court House forum about there needing to be a GM witness.
Considering there aren't enough GMs to be everywhere all the time, I'd think that player witnesses should be enough.
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o11c
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by o11c »

The primary purpose of the Court House forum is for GMs to report their actions.

Also, the sticky says "a screenshot is not proof, neither are witnesses"

And for some reason everytime we suggest chat logging (which would allow us to handle reports when there is no GM to witness), everybody freaks out.
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prsm
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by prsm »

The sad fact is that screenies can be manipulated, and people can fabricate stories.

When you feel someone is insulting you, you have 2 choices. 1) you can call for a gm at @wgm or you can put that person on ignore (the feature is on all clients).

Historically that is the way its always been done and will continue to be done until the GHP changes it.
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Chaosxlife67
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by Chaosxlife67 »

Whether people freak out or not chat logging should be implemented, it prevents harrassment and helps search for abuse ingame. Yes you can call for a gm but without chat logging how can you act on the harrassment that has already taken place? Its easy enough for someone to harrass and walk away and by the time someone calls for a gm and they get there the harrasser has already left, and as you stated screenshots can be faked so without chat logging there is no other proof. And what about ingame harrassment (aka kill stealing?) without screenshots or some other detection system someone high enough level can take all the fun out of the game for new players. And to review a subject in the court forums, it does say in the abuse sticky... You should post a screenshot of the abuse (until we have a chat log) but a screenshot is not proof enough to ban someone, neither are witnesses. While it may not be enough proof it is still encouraged to post, but I think it contradicts itself.
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by Frost »

Piki wrote:I do not see a point to there being a Court House forum, based on this quote by Prsm:
i have to lock this thread, if a GM isnt there to witness it, we cant act on it, sorry for that!
Here are the problems:
If a GM is present, he/she can deal with the problem on the spot, instead of waiting for a report
If someone involved is inapropriately banned, he/she can email
There aren't enough GMs to cover EVERY area of the game 24/7 -- I rarely see any GMs anyway, so hardly anyting will get taken care of anyways.

Arguments against Prsm's statement:
There isn't anything posted in the rules or Court House forum about there needing to be a GM witness.
Considering there aren't enough GMs to be everywhere all the time, I'd think that player witnesses should be enough.
Court House forum is used to announce disciplinary activities, not for people to pursue grievances against other players.

I was online and in town to witness the situation. I saw nothing that would justify intervention or punishment. I still don't. I didn't even realize you were genuinely offended until you posted to the forums.
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Tiana
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by Tiana »

As prsm already stated, screenshots can be manipulated and even completely faked. It is because of this reason that screenshots will never be accepted as enough proof to ban another player. However, they are useful - along with the report - to alert the GM team to keep an eye on the player who is being accused of botting, abusing, etc. The main reason we end up closing these reports is because folks start making random comments that are not appropriate for the forum or topic, not because we are ignoring that there is a possible concern.

Chat logging will simply never be implemented. Most of the players and developers consider such a thing a gross violation of their personal privacy, and if you do a search in the forums you can read the discussions regarding that yourself. There are too many problems: privacy and storage issues being the two biggest.

In the end the game is free and is supposed to be fun for everyone. The GM team is around to do what we can to uphold the rules, but we are humans with jobs, families, and other commitments. We would prefer you to keep playing and helping to make the game better, but if you are being targeted with abuse/harassment and there is no GM online to help you have 2 options: log out or /ignore "player name". If you feel the GM team needs to be added to then please review the GM nomination forums and either vote for an existing candidate or nominate one of your own!
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by Nard »

Even if Nothing can be done if no GM is present, it has been useful in the past that people report about some abuse which were against the rules: phishing and afk botting especially.
Even if screenshots are not proofs, they can be good clues since they would be rather at least time consuming to cheat.
Also keep in mind that this is a role playing game and that some players may like to play bitchy roles or troll.
Drop stealing is not possible for a certain delay. Target stealing is somewhat difficult to define as you can get better experience if someone shoots your target :/
Public Chat logging cannot be seen as a privacy violation because it is public. If it is not implemented, it is ONLY because GHP didn't decide to log it (and maybe because rules are more restrictive than US law to fit European ones). Players have nothing to do in that, I never saw that players were able to make the rules even if they comment them.
Players who cannot deal with this log should only send encrypted mails and protest against this forum were their words are kept even for a long time.
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mistergrey
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by mistergrey »

I don't believe the reasoning for not having a chat log was due to law, actually. While there has been a lot of content added in the past year or two, many players use the game primarily to socialize with friends they've made in game. They, the players, would consider it a violation of their privacy (not all, clearly, but many), and honestly I don't see much point in whispers if they're not private from everyone. Even as a GM, I know that sometimes players will be angry at a punishment, or seeing a friend punished, and may just want to vent and call the GM in question a few creative names privately. This avoids a scene and I respect that - I don't think those players should be rewarded with GMs being able to view their 'private' conversations, and judge them over a comment made in private while angry. I equally wouldn't particularly trust anyone else with access to that, no matter how objective or impartial they believe themselves to be.

It is true that these players could add and speak with each other on more truly private venues. I just think of it as giving players somewhere they can speak their mind in game without fear of repercussions or someone in power holding a grudge against them. Being honest, while chat logging would help catch more instances of players being abusive to each other... insults are also very dependent on context. For an example, maybe 2 friends will jokingly call each other a minorly insulting name, and it will be obvious they are not arguing. I will not punish or warn about this, unless they use a very offensive word in doing so. Sometimes the cues that show you players are joking are not kept in chat - emotes, actions, they could even share the same party. Many things factor into a situation beside what is said - otherwise I assume we would just have chat filters or something similar to autoban those who insult.
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by Frost »

I was there and watching, so let's not get wrapped around the axle about chat logging and GM presence. Continue discussing whether the forums should be shut down because someone's feelings were offended. Also debate whether existing admin/GMs are criminally insensitive to those who are easily bruised by seeing cuss words on the Internet.

From my chat log:

[04:24] Villain: insulting yourself is against the rules
[04:24] NiqueWind's Wardrobe: lol
[04:24] Villain: please behave or i shall summon a green name
[04:25] Piki: i know swearing at others is against the rules :-)
[04:25] Villain: hey, f*** you too
[04:26] Villain slaps monique
[04:26] NiqueWind's Wardrobe: piki f*** off
[04:26] NiqueWind's Wardrobe: oops
[04:26] Villain: yeah piki, f*** off
[04:26] NiqueWind's Wardrobe: LOL
[04:26] Villain: you too, Sango98
[04:26] JackDeth: Cute.
[04:26] Sango98: thanks
[04:26] Sango98: hi santa jack
[04:26] Piki: what did i do? >.<
[04:26] Sango98: me too what ?
[04:26] Sango98: villain


Note: at no time did Piki ask for assistance or intervention.
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by Nard »

Nobody asks that every words that could be seen as a rule transgression is punished, every rule has a fuzzy zone where it is subject to interpretation, even "common sense" can be subjective. This is why we need GMs.

Something like the "Duck off" we speak about here has different strength depending on the context (it is the case here, or when omido says it), but also depending on the country you come from: Polish, Spanish, Germans and French will not say or understand it the same way, even US Americans and English do not use it the same way. It may be the case here too. Players should be a ware of that.

Frost's post, quoting his log points out the utility of both public chat and @wgm logs, for GMs to be able to have an advice. By the way, logging public chat of all players is not an easy task. The log(s) should be readable to be useful.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
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Piki
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by Piki »

Frost wrote:Note: at no time did Piki ask for assistance or intervention.
I did ask for intervention. I posted to the forum. I wasn't aware that I could do so in game until I started this thread.

I'd also like to point out from your log, that villain did swear at me, and swearing at other players IS against the rules. Yes, I get offended when people swear at me without good reason.

I would like to point out several issues with the above posts.

The court house mentions reporting abuse. If it's only for explaining administrative actions, the reporting abuse bit should be removed.

I'd also like to point out that disciplinary actions and abuse can be reported privately to avoid embarrassment. The GMs have my email addresss, it's associated with my account. They can also PM me in game if they'd like. Yet another argument against the court house forum.

I personally am for public chat logging. Space concerns shouldn't be too much an issue with this -- provided you are using a UNIX-based OS (such as Linux), you can easily set up scripts to erase logs more than x days old, and to compress logs that are newer than x days but older than x days.

I wouldn't want my whispers to be logges since those are intended to be private.

I expect any group that runs and moderates a game of their own accord to accept the responsibilities. That's really what this is about. Yes, the admins/devs/GMs are volunteers, and I can respect that. I'm even willing to be patient with them while they fix bugs and deal with abuse. But to outright neglect responsibilities is just stupid, and turns away other potential volunteers. This situation here, is a clear neglection of responsibilities.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying insult, flame, or raise trouble. I was offended by another, and that offense was clear violation of rules. I'd also like to point out that one of the players from my report, as well as a different player, as well as a GM (forget his name, was two words) gave me trouble later that night, and gave me even more of an insult. I didn't bother reporting that one, I was too worked up to think about it till later, but still...

Mana World is a good game, and has potential to be better. If this can be straightened somehow -- even for future situations, even if it isn't my particular report -- I'd be willing to volunteer too. I'm all for F\OSS and am learning to program. The more volunteers, the better, right?

EDIT: As a suggestion for chat logging and keeping them readable, do it on a per-map basis, each map having it's own set of logs.
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by prsm »

Thank you Piki, for your thoughts and critics, I am sure the GHP will consider your words.
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by Nard »

[quote="Nard"]Something like the "**** off" we speak about here .../quote]
Someone edited my post without mentioning it . :roll: The word f**** was intentionally written with letters.

This lets me pensive about the use of this word in game... :?
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by o11c »

Nard wrote:
Nard wrote:Something like the "**** off" we speak about here ...
Someone edited my post without mentioning it . :roll: The word f**** was intentionally written with letters.

This lets me pensive about the use of this word in game... :?
This forum has an automatic censorship filter.
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Nard
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Re: Court House forum should be closed

Post by Nard »

cody wrote:
Nard wrote: Public Chat logging cannot be seen as a privacy violation because it is public.
Most people naively assume that only those players can listen to a conversation that are actually there. I thought that too when I started playing. I am still baffled how many here want to turn this game into a totalitarian police state.
[04:24] Villain: insulting yourself is against the rules
That was a good joke. The only problem is that not everyone understood that.

"Feel free to insult me!" by Rowan Atkinson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gciegyiLYtY
I also said:
myself wrote: Nobody asks that every words that could be seen as a rule transgression is punished, every rule has a fuzzy zone where it is subject to interpretation, even "common sense" can be subjective. This is why we need GMs.
Something like the "Duck off" we speak about here has different strength depending on the context (it is the case here, ...
The log can also be used to show someone that he /she was wrong .

Everybody should be able to understand that . I am also baffled how fast are some people to judge others. Defending liberty of speaking and accepting the consequences of what I said in public costed me 3 weeks in prison while I was in the army.

Edit:
by the way, it seems that the forum software is set up to replace by stars the word f.u.c.k. :lol:

**** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** **** ****
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
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