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I don't have time to fix it myself, but if someone shoots a patch my way I'll review it and commit it if it's ok.

And no, the next stable client is frozen and won't have guild support.. Don't want to add new bugs at this late a stage.

I don't think anyone's working on guild support in the client except 4144, hopefully he pushes to get the changes back in the main mana tree so the next release after this one can have support.

Freeyorp101 wrote:

Freeyorp wrote:This is silly. Read how guild experience works again.

---Freeyorp

I am still trying to find how guild experience and guild in general work in TMW. I could not find any document on it. Only suggestions are on the wiki (some of them are interesting).

About the limit now: If a Character can only belong to one guild, the physical number of guild members should be the number of active characters in the game. If a character can belong to several guilds, the number should be set to reflect what guilds are actually. Some players (and not the least) seem to think that this option should be considered.

remark:
@guildspy <guild_name/id>
@partyspy <party_name/id>
Should be removed from GM commands (even from administrators). GM can belong to guilds or parties. guild and party chats require privacy. They could be temporary disabled though, if administration needs it.

Support for guilds has been removed from the next release of the tmwAthena server, due to being unmaintainable. This does not mean that it might not be reimplemented from scratch later.

In addition, I do not see any reason that any form of chat - including party/guild chat and whispers - should be considered private.
In fact, it is necessary to record them in order to provide substantial evidence against players who are verbally abusive.

o11c wrote:Support for guilds has been removed from the next release of the tmwAthena server, due to being unmaintainable. This does not mean that it might not be reimplemented from scratch later.

The collateral damage caused by your refactoring seems to increase more and more. Are you sure that the community will really benefit from your improvements, when your cleanups are making the user experience worse and it might take a long time to recover the lost features? The reason why we still use eAthena and not Manaserv is because its features might not look good, but they just work. When you cut features for the sake of technical design, you are risking that tmwAthena will lose its selling point over Manaserv.

In addition, I do not see any reason that any form of chat - including party/guild chat and whispers - should be considered private.
In fact, it is necessary to record them in order to provide substantial evidence against players who are verbally abusive.

I believe that the users have the right of privacy. Server administrators should not have the possibility to snoop on users. TMW isn't 1984.

As an alternative to be able to do something against harassment in private chat could be a feature which allows a user to make the server send its server-sided chat history to a game master.

o11c wrote:Support for guilds has been removed from the next release of the tmwAthena server, due to being unmaintainable....

In addition, I do not see any reason that any form of chat - including party/guild chat and whispers - should be considered private.

I find both of these statements disturbing.

You should not be too busy listening to your own opinions of your internal processes to hear what your customers tell you. Quality of results is not measured by quality of code. In other words, if people like guild chat (this has been discussed), but you don't like the code that makes it work, removing the feature isn't necessarily the right choice. Yes, I realize you weren't asking for opinions.

The second statement bothers me on two levels:
First, that someone would actually state that they see NO REASON for private conversations in the game. That's a very strong thing to say.
Second, that it comes from someone whose role is to modify the source code. In other words, the same person who tells us that he sees no justification for privacy also has the ability to remove that privacy. Or has already done so.


I've managed multiuser computers and corporate email systems for more than a decade. A role with that kind of access requires real respect for the people you're serving. If you destroy the trust of those people, you're finished. I believe the same is true here.

o11c wrote:Support for guilds has been removed from the next release of the tmwAthena server, due to being unmaintainable. This does not mean that it might not be reimplemented from scratch later.

As an engineer I was taught that before removing or changing a system part that works, I should conceive something that works better. This could apply software development, I think.

o11c wrote:In addition, I do not see any reason that any form of chat - including party/guild chat and whispers - should be considered private.

There are a lot of reasons:
Gaming reasons: just imagine Guild wars. this has already happened in this game. GM could belong to opposite guilds. If my information is exact, developers of this server have imagined this possibility (and many others that are unfortunately available in TMW: Jail, guild store...). Maybe it could be a good idea to wonder why they did. Some articles on the wiki are written with that idea in background.
simple role play: may require some secret
Personal reasons: It is not your role to decide what is private and what is not. Laws decides it for you. whispers and group chats ARE private discussions. and nobody should be allowed to listen to them except if it is explicitly required by the group or a player, or by legal authorities.

o11c wrote:In fact, it is necessary to record them in order to provide substantial evidence against players who are verbally abusive.

If so why do GMs say that there is no way to prove phishing, or insults if no GM is present?

I do think that as much as possible of the abilities of this system should be available as long as they do not make the server crash, and as soon as content developers can set a nice frame to integrate it in the game.

Note: My remarks, even if they could be understood as criticisms should NEVER be seen as negative. My one and only purpose, when posting here is making the game to advance.
May I remind that I also said:http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =4&t=12325

Nard wrote:As an engineer I was taught that before removing or changing a system part that works, I should conceive something that works better. This could apply software development, I think.

Speaking with Jaxad and Wombat, we decided that guilds, to the extent that tmwA currently implements them (of which I cannot, honestly, say they "work"), were not an officially supported part of the server, and there were no objections to removing them.

Personally, I don't see what guilds could add to gameplay that parties don't already do. If you do, create a thread (in Player Talk for discussion with the community, or in Technical Development if the community has reached a consensus, to get an implementation plan). Keep in mind that guilds are not very high on my priority list (I would love to have someone else assisting with the server code).

Nard wrote:If so why do GMs say that there is no way to prove phishing, or insults if no GM is present?

Because no form of chat logging is currently implemented, this is merely a vague proposal.

There was brief discussion of whether whisper/party logging would be helpful to crack down on bots, and it was decided it was irrelevant.
It was suggested that whispers be recorded temporarily, but not logged to a file, with a @reportabuse <abusercharname> command so an abused player could prove to the GMs what was said.

o11c wrote: Speaking with Jaxad and Wombat, we decided that guilds, to the extent that tmwA currently implements them (of which I cannot, honestly, say they "work"), were not an officially supported part of the server, and there were no objections to removing them.
[...]Keep in mind that guilds are not very high on my priority list (I would love to have someone else assisting with the server code).

If you do not plan to work on them, I cannot figure why you plan to suppress them. I am actually testing some of the actual guild features on another server; and none of these seem to be buggy at the moment, this is what I call "work".

o11c wrote:Personally, I don't see what guilds could add to gameplay that parties don't already do
Your action let suppose you have something against guilds

Developers that created the software supported guilds because most MMORPGs have this feature, and when they are not available in game, guilds are organized outside it. It was said before in this thread that partieswere intended to be temporary, for a particular action or quest. they are paricularly useful for item and experience sharing so that warriors have no disadvantage compared to mages and archers. examples: cindy's quest, Candor...
May I remind you that two (3 if we include Aurora society, 4 with "The pleasant Company") guilds are active in TMW actually. If you want to be aware of guild activities, just ask to guild members such as Sugar, Ichigo, Big Crunch, AlOnS, Narus, Reid, WildX, Chicka Maria, Frost, JJenkins, and so much more, which interest they have in (may I remind Wombat that he applied to Crew of Red Corsair in august 2010 and never went even to visit the site). Some players do not like guilds though, I can understand them though, you seem to be among them.
I do not see a need to a new thread on guild problem as this one seems to be sufficient at the moment. I am not asking for new features, but just to keep existing ones,and if possible, to content developers try to make them usable.
Concerning you last remark. My question was a kind of answer to your former declarations where you told about a "need to record" conversations, the real subject was privacy.

cordially and respectfully yours
Nard
http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Guild_system
http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... _technical

Nard wrote: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Guild_system
http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... _technical

Note that these articles are a proposal for the guild system on Manaserv which is not even accepted. They have nothing to do with the guild system the server currently implements.

What o11c should of said is that he is also going to make a new guild system and it is top priority. If it is low priority, you don't have permission to remove guilds.

Crush wrote: Note that these articles are a proposal for the guild system on Manaserv which is not even accepted. They have nothing to do with the guild system the server currently implements.

These articles mention clearly they are only a proposal, and are intended for programmers. I haven't seen manaserv mentioned though. I like some of the suggestions that are made there.
Some of the features, as members ranking or guild storage are already implemented as there are GM commands that use them; these commands work. I'd be happy to know how I could use them now (on an alt server of course).
cordially and respectfully yours
Nard