Dear TMW Community.

[blackrazor]

if tmw goews back to platyna it dies. only devs we have are those on tmwc. i wonder if razor has a competing game and is trying to bring this death on. seriously look at all the quests. theyre all written by tmwc

I've played since 2007, I have no competing game, and I care very much about what happens to TMW.

The TMWC only came into existence after March 9th, 2013, and have written basically none of the quests.

Most of the content you see in TMW was written by many talented generations of developers, during the many years, from 2006 to 2013 that Platyna was the administrator of this game. Some of those developers were on the GHP. Some are on the TMWC now. But many are not, and they will develop regardless of who runs the game. History is an excellent guide in this regard.

[templarwarrior]

not sure you can call platyna a co author. only thing she did is provide a machine. she never wrote anything for tmw.

That would be for the courts to decide. My point is, is it willing to risk the future of the game over what a court system defines an "author?"

If no one is going to put forth any serious effort in rectifying this issue and continue to point fingers and hurl insults, I would guarantee this will go to court.

That means the current server will be seized. That means the current server is not going to be running for a very long time.

if tmw goews back to platyna it dies. only devs we have are those on tmwc. i wonder if razor has a competing game and is trying to bring this death on. seriously look at all the quests. theyre all written by tmwc

The game could die if the save data ends up in legal limbo for years on end. Which matter of death is better?

jen and void have been writing virtually all the quests and are on tmwc. so there wouldnt be new quests as platyna has absolutely no qualified devs

[Platyna]

I was a content developer myself, so you are wrong that I never did any work. Yet still this was my account where tmwserver ran, and rules of Platinum says clearly - a user is the owner of account and all the files he generates. So the owner of LoF is Pihro as it is his account.

Regards.

[Bjørn]

I was a content developer myself, so you are wrong that I never did any work. Yet still this was my account where tmwserver ran, and rules of Platinum says clearly - a user is the owner of account and all the files he generates. So the owner of LoF is Pihro as it is his account.

No point in spreading false information. The Mana World was running under a shared 'eathena' account and nobody ever gave you sole ownership of the data stored or generated under that account. The forums and wiki were similarly running from a shared 'tmw' account.

If you are truly convinced you owned this data, then this move could not have been performed early enough. It even means it was a wrong decision to move hosting to platinum in the first place. We should be glad TMW managed to move on regardless and hope it will be more careful to choose its hosting services in the future.

[Platyna]

I was a content developer myself, so you are wrong that I never did any work. Yet still this was my account where tmwserver ran, and rules of Platinum says clearly - a user is the owner of account and all the files he generates. So the owner of LoF is Pihro as it is his account.

No point in spreading false information. The Mana World was running under a shared 'eathena' account and nobody ever gave you sole ownership of the data stored or generated under that account. The forums and wiki were similarly running from a shared 'tmw' account.

If you are truly convinced you owned this data, then this move could not have been performed early enough. It even means it was a wrong decision to move hosting to platinum in the first place. We should be glad TMW managed to move on regardless and hope it will be more careful to choose its hosting services in the future.

You left TMW five years ago and you made a different client and server project. You never was considering to build any community - this is what we argued about, you left it in my hands and left. Now you pop in after five years to "manage" the community you didn't even wanted to created. Interested person may find your old postings.

Regards.

[Bjørn]

You left TMW five years ago and you made a different client and server project. You never was considering to build any community - this is what we argued about, you left it in my hands and left. Now you pop in after five years to "manage" the community you didn't even wanted to created. Interested person may find your old postings.

Regards.

I never officially left TMW, and my work has remained the same until now, be it less actively because I don't have as much spare time as I used to have. I have always worked mostly on the client and server (which are no different from the projects they were since 2004, btw - they don't change just because they fall under 'The Mana Project' umbrella now).

I had to give up the role of server admin because there was no way I could work together with you, due to our disagreements. To conclude that this means I handed full ownership of the game data to you is plain wrong.

[Platyna]

You left for a different projects, and now you contradict yourself. Yes as you said you left server administration and you said that further development od eA content is pointless. This is what we argued for for years and now when my server became successful you just pop in and try to kick me out. I have never expected that you along with bunch of abusers can play such dirty games.

This server and this forum is my work, my time and my money.

You are just exploiting your previous position and domain access to take over a successful project based on you software. No sober people will ever cooparete with persons capable doing such things.

No one will risk to put a lot of effort just to be kicked out from own server and have their work hijacked.

[blackrazor]

Platyna, I agreed with the move as did ElvenProgrammer (who had to change the DNS settings). However, I'm sure neither of us knows much about what's going on in this community these days. If you only just found out, then I can only conclude the same counts for you.

I do not endorse the direction this project is going in general. The idea of developing an own server has been abandoned in favour of fixing up tmwAthena. Client development has been outsourced to ManaPlus. Both are projects driven by a single person, so as far as I can see there's nothing left of the team we had years ago. To me it's depressing, but I've accepted it as there is nothing I can do about it.

My advice to you is, let it go. The Mana World is driven by new forces now, but at least it's driven by forces at all. They got time in their favour, like we had in the good old days. Let them improve and fix The Mana World as they see fit. Maybe we will be surprised by what this project can achieve.

Bjorn, this quote from you, taken from the start of this very thread, pretty much endorses Platyna's version of accounts. You state that you didn't know much about what was going on in this community these days, that you did not endorse the project's direction in terms of fixing up tmwAthena and ManaPlus, and you felt the idea of developing a unique client and server, the original goal, had been abandoned. You advised Platyna to "let it go", which is presumably what you had done, as well.

Only, Platyna had not let it go. She remained an admin, rule maker, infrastructure builder, and final arbiter to us, from 2006 to 2013, during which time most of the development for TMW actually occurred.

I have nothing personally against the TMWC. I have great respect for many of the people on it. My issue is more the way the committee came into being and what they have done since. First, they voted themselves into existence instead of making this a community decision. If it was truly going to be a new beginning, with new leadership, they certainly didn't ask what the community thought about that, before the move. Also, they disguised (my opinion) the overthrow of Platyna as a routine move that was just to get rid of some lag. They kept the new hosts anonymous, at their request, even though Madcamel (our current host) is a very controversial player, who even now makes vulgar remarks that would get any normal player banned or muted. They have thus far made no constitution that could govern the rules of succession and data-file ownership going forward, to avoid the problems of the past. They are not transparent at all to the community, although perhaps those actually in the TMWC and others with access to their work and communication feel more free, that freedom does not carry down to the rest of the community.

Obviously the data-files have to belong to somebody. Platyna was not just "some host". She took the project over for years, during times when no one else wanted to, and I personally would rather she be declared the owner over another competing group. At least her record is clear. I know she is difficult to get along with, but she is also extremely fair, a reliable admin and host, and she will work with others, even if she doesn't get along with them. So having Platyna in charge seems to be the only way where everyone would be free to actually return to doing what their jobs were before March 9th 2013, during which time the game ran just fine and experienced much development over the years.

[Ledmitz]

I was recently told by a few people that using keyboard sounds had to be credited to the makers of such. I dug and dug to find out the answer. I searched for Korg and Roland licenses to verify that this nonsense could not be true. Especially since many LP's over the years have used these sounds and many never gave credit. I never di find a keyboard that licenses it's sounds yet. Only in the instance that a manufacturer wanted to endorse a band resulted in credits like this and I can only imagine that advertising was paid for in many cases. After more digging I ended up finding out that it is totally fine when using in a song, however you cannot simply upload a sound directly from your keyboard and license it yourself, BUT ... the original sample is done in one note .. the keboard changes the pitch so that only one sample is needed ... so technically, you can use the actual sample... change the pitch and no one can do anything about it ... however doing this would be immorral of course and it later defined such a thing a frowned upon, but is in a totally grey area as no major manufacturer actually bothers to license keyboard samples. What a waste of time it would be to create sounds for people to use and then add a bunch of stipulations that would do nothing but shy people away from using their product.

In short.. save files are a grey area. I would very much doubt that anyone would give sole ownership to a server owner. These files are necessary to the project and as such would be more likely to be under the GPL than any sole owner, if any license could be given to them at all, but since the accounts contain private data of many individuals... no one can stake a claim to license it as nothing else can be done with it other than give people access to their accounts. So again.. this is not a license matter, it is a privacy one. I'll bet dimes to donuts that if 10 lawyers came on here, we would see that there would be more than 1 point of view and arguements would still occur. This is why courts exist. However taking such a rediculous thing into court would not only be costly... you might not even make it into the courtroom. So let's be practical here. Is this nonsense going to go to court? What fool is willing to fight to have nothing in the end anyway? (court takes time). GARRETTtheGREAT and templarwarrior have definately done their homework. But again.. is this discussion even practical? No one owns that data... only the templates. I can only imagine that any final decision would be to destroy the file and start from scratch. What good would that do for anyone?

@Platyna - repeating the same things over and over... avoiding factual information ... discrediting your opponents instead. Are you a politician by any chance? If not.. think about it. You fit the bill. If you were in charge of this post, it would have been closed long ago, for better or for worse. You were an amazing maintainer, I hear an excellent programmer, very smart too ... You never were a Queen though. It was an illusion. Many people keep thanking you and you push it to the side. Many people blame you and you push it to the side. You only see your point, and that is why what happened, happened. Please don't think I am trying to insult you. I am not. I do not know you, just of you. For your own benefit, you should have stopped this fight when it began. Truly, I and so many others wish you the best in what you do. Even those that disagree with you. Please see this if nothing else. I am sure your life is more successful than mine. Enjoy it. Don't get pulled down into all this BS, when life is right in front of you. Peace!

[GARRETTtheGREAT]

...The Mana World was running under a shared 'eathena' account and nobody ever gave you sole ownership of the data stored or generated under that account...

So she is part owner then, and has equal say in all matters regarding the save data as per my post http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 35#p133135 ?

[blackrazor]

I wanted to make clear what I was trying to accomplish.

I wanted to show that there was broad support in the community for both Platyna and the TMWC, and that both had legitimate and significant claims on TMW's past, present, and future.

What I want is a leader that will re-unite the community, mend the fences, bring everyone together, and move the game and community forward from here, leaving no one behind that still wants to participate.

That is why I am leaning towards my support of Platyna. She's not perfect, no one is. But at least with her as administrator and arbiter, I think every developer would be free to come back and develop for the game, successfully, as has been for all these years, and with the developers themselves free from the distractions and drama-doo-doo-storms of actually having to administer a community, which is not as fun as it looks, eh?

On the other hand, with the TMWC in charge, I see a split community with no role for Platyna at all. And I see developers being constantly distracted with admin tasks and duties.

Like I said before, I have great respect for all of the people that have put work into this game. That includes Platyna, the TMWC, many unsung developers watching quietly from afar, and the players themselves, who breathe life into this online world.

I have insulted no one (I hope), and certainly it was never my intention. I may not agree with everything, but that should be okay. But please, people, fix this already. Re-unite, mend the fences, big group hug, and move forward. Even if you don't like it, even if it repulses you, the community needs ALL of you, so please, for the sake of the community, get together, keep together, and work for the game, together.

[o11c]

The save data is not covered by the GPL. The GPL version 2.0 is used throughout the source code (version 3.0 can be used if and only if the copyright notice states that future versions can be used, which it does not),

That's not accurate. Rather, *any* version of the GPL can be used unless terms are introduced that allow only one version. The server had practically no terms, so after careful consideration I started licensing my own changes as GPL3+.

I have not investigated the art/media, however - but I believe some of it may fall under GPL2-only. Of course, that's okay since the server and the data are merely aggregated, not linked.

[WildX]

Every kind of reasonable solution that is proposed is being either ignored or refused by both sides. It seems like everyone wants to keep all for themselves and no one is willing to accept compromises.
The TMWC acts like they're above all this and keep ignoring the problem (because they clearly have shown that as long as they have the 51% of "votes", they don't really care about the other 49%), and Platyna (I'm mentioning only her, but I know there's a lot of people on her side, even a few devs) is stubborn as hell and doesn't want to listen to anyone, even those who are trying to help her.
This will keep going until TMW is destroyed or until both sides find a reasonable compromise, because both sides aren't being reasonable right now.

[Platyna]

Every kind of reasonable solution that is proposed is being either ignored or refused by both sides. It seems like everyone wants to keep all for themselves and no one is willing to accept compromises.
The TMWC acts like they're above all this and keep ignoring the problem (because they clearly have shown that as long as they have the 51% of "votes", they don't really care about the other 49%), and Platyna (I'm mentioning only her, but I know there's a lot of people on her side, even a few devs) is stubborn as hell and doesn't want to listen to anyone, even those who are trying to help her.
This will keep going until TMW is destroyed or until both sides find a reasonable compromise, because both sides aren't being reasonable right now.

If the current server files will return to me, I am not going to kick anyone out, as somebody mentioned I am usually a fair person, kicking out someone who wants to do useful work for TMW would be inappriopriate. However I will restrict the access to server save files.

However I am not going to work under o11c or any "committee", as this project needs someone who will be a final regulatory body - it comes to community and technical issues - I did not interfered in development since me and Bjorn agreed to divide developers from moderation.

Attitude of o11c, Frost or Bjorn is an evidence that I was right - it is about blackmail and power crave not well being of TMW or me being difficult person.

Regards.

[WildX]

Every kind of reasonable solution that is proposed is being either ignored or refused by both sides. It seems like everyone wants to keep all for themselves and no one is willing to accept compromises.
The TMWC acts like they're above all this and keep ignoring the problem (because they clearly have shown that as long as they have the 51% of "votes", they don't really care about the other 49%), and Platyna (I'm mentioning only her, but I know there's a lot of people on her side, even a few devs) is stubborn as hell and doesn't want to listen to anyone, even those who are trying to help her.
This will keep going until TMW is destroyed or until both sides find a reasonable compromise, because both sides aren't being reasonable right now.

If the current server files will return to me, I am not going to kick anyone out, as somebody mentioned I am usually a fair person, kicking out someone who wants to do useful work for TMW would be inapproriate. However I will restrict the access to server save files.

Seems pretty reasonable to me.