Dear TMW Community.

[Big Crunch]

...

You are a GM, you are not supposed to spam or troll, which is what you are doing currently.

Regards.

Would you rather me post some well thought out statement about how o11c is no more or no less an overlord than anyone else in TMWC? Perhaps a thought on how smoothly things have gone since the move? Maybe a thought regarding how I feel sorry that you feel as though insulting everyone's intelligence with nearly every statement you make will change everyone's mind? Would a summation of how the move came to be and how we all voted to move be more appropriate? None of those thoughts or posts would change your mind, nor allay your feelings on the matter. o11c will still be your target of choice, you will continue to say the things you say, truth be damned, and nothing will change. So I posted a picture of something that makes me giggle. Enjoy.

[Platyna]

...

You are a GM, you are not supposed to spam or troll, which is what you are doing currently.

Regards.

[blackrazor]

And that says it all. Save files are NOT covered under the GPL. You can't copyright them, which means they are public domain, in a sense... that is, if there were no privacy issues.

Just because the save files are not covered by the GPL, does not mean they are not copyrighted. The default status for uncontested data on your computer is that it is copyrighted ... by you. For something to be public domain, you must assign it as such, or abandon your rights to it, or if the trace of ownership is impossible. See more on public domain, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

====

Your current host is MadCamel, who you should know very well - as he is an abuser, who was spamming and DoSing the server.

Are you sure this is the person hosting TMWC's copy of TMW now? This is the guy who made extremely vulgar remarks here: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 5&start=18. This is the kind of language that would get any normal player muted or banned, but this guy can write these things on the forums and in game, and because he hosts, he cannot be touched? What if his friends write stuff like this, are they immune too? And our player information and passwords are safe with this guy? No wonder the hosting was kept anonymous... Not cool. Not cool at all.

[Rill]

Just because the save files are not covered by the GPL, does not mean they are not copyrighted. The default status for uncontested data on your computer is that it is copyrighted ... by you.

With all due respect, I do not know to what nation’s laws you might be referring, but that is an inaccurate representation of copyright law as it exists in the United States. According to the U.S. Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C., Section 102(a), copyright protection vests immediately and automatically in the creator of original works of authorship that are fixed in any tangible medium of expression. Simply because an individual or organization has ownership or possession of files does not mean they have a copyright interest in them.

See also 17 U.S.C., Section 202:
Ownership of a copyright, or of any of the exclusive rights under a copyright, is distinct from ownership of any material object in which the work is embodied. Transfer of ownership of any material object, including the copy or phonorecord in which the work is first fixed, does not of itself convey any rights in the copyrighted work embodied in the object;....

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/index.html

[Nard]

To make Blackrazor's sayings clearer let's take an example:

Rosegarden is an opensource, GPLv2, music software dedicated to sound Capture/Recording, Composition, MIDI, and editing. It is obvious in this case that no output is GPL or no musician would use it.

[Ledmitz]

To make Blackrazor's sayings clearer let's take an example:

Rosegarden is an opensource, GPLv2, music software dedicated to sound Capture/Recording, Composition, MIDI, and editing. It is obvious in this case that no output is GPL or no musician would use it.

This software does not generate it's own output. Completely different scenario.

[Platyna]

To make Blackrazor's sayings clearer let's take an example:

Rosegarden is an opensource, GPLv2, music software dedicated to sound Capture/Recording, Composition, MIDI, and editing. It is obvious in this case that no output is GPL or no musician would use it.

This software does not generate it's own output. Completely different scenario.

You seem to not accept any logical arguments.

Regards.

[blackrazor]

Just because the save files are not covered by the GPL, does not mean they are not copyrighted. The default status for uncontested data on your computer is that it is copyrighted ... by you.

With all due respect, I do not know to what nation’s laws you might be referring, but that is an inaccurate representation of copyright law as it exists in the United States. According to the U.S. Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C., Section 102(a), copyright protection vests immediately and automatically in the creator of original works of authorship that are fixed in any tangible medium of expression. Simply because an individual or organization has ownership or possession of files does not mean they have a copyright interest in them.

Program output (not the program itself) is an original work. If there is no prior claim on the output as a precondition for using the program (GPL has no such preconditions, nor does it allow them) and if ownership is uncontested (the output contains no copyrighted information, such as a musician's song), then the output belongs to you. If you wish to have no copyright interest in the output, you are free to assign it as public domain, but that does not happen automatically.

See also 17 U.S.C., Section 202:
Ownership of a copyright, or of any of the exclusive rights under a copyright, is distinct from ownership of any material object in which the work is embodied. Transfer of ownership of any material object, including the copy or phonorecord in which the work is first fixed, does not of itself convey any rights in the copyrighted work embodied in the object;....

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/index.html

That second paragraph, as it applies here, says that the copyright of a software is separate from the ownership of the hardware on which it runs, which is correct. Also, if I sell the hardware, or make a copy of the software, the copyright on the software remains intact and unchanged, which is also correct.

Note that the ownership of the software was never in dispute. The point is, that you can use software as a tool (like a pen, or a piano), to make output that is considered your own original work, and by default, you own that work. The software (code, scripts, art assets) of TMW is copyrighted under a GPL licence. If you make an actual living breathing vibrant world online, using that software, then the program output, the datafiles containing the player saves, are your own original work that are protected by copyright (non-GPL).

Ten people could download the TMW server off of the internet, and each could start running their worlds, and each would be different, and each would belong to the person running them, though the server software behind it would have its copyright remain unchanged of course. Now of those ten people, if one of those worlds becomes wildly successful, full, busy, alive; the other nine do not have the right to take for themselves a copy of that world without permission, and clone it. Neither do any of the players on that world, nor any of the people helping to develop the GPL software on which it runs. Like it or not, the GPL licence which governs the fair use and ownership of the server software is not the same licence which governs the fair use and ownership of the datafiles which are output by the software.

[Ledmitz]

You seem to not accept any logical arguments.

You seem to not accept reality.

[blackrazor]

To make Blackrazor's sayings clearer let's take an example:

Rosegarden is an opensource, GPLv2, music software dedicated to sound Capture/Recording, Composition, MIDI, and editing. It is obvious in this case that no output is GPL or no musician would use it.

This software does not generate it's own output. Completely different scenario.

Which software?

Rosegarden normally generates edited musical output, which most certainly is output. In this case, the output will inherit the copyright of the input. If your input is from multiple sources, each with different copyrights, then I am not sure, but probably you need permission from each copyright holder, unless you can claim "snippet defense" or "fair use", for example see here: http://corpus.byu.edu/coca/help/copyright.asp

TMWserver generates a datafile, including player saves, which represents the actual instance of the world you are playing in. It is output, but since there is no (separate initial) input file (as with Rosegarden), it has nothing from which to inherit its copyright, therefore the copyright ownership defaults to the person or organization running the server software.

[Platyna]

Exactly blackrazor. Problem is that those supporting this "move" will never admit it, no matter how logic your arguments will be.

I was already refused the name "The Mana World Original Server" by 4144's list because he is afraid of o11c.

I was told that MY server is a fork of THEIR server - can you underestand it? A server created seven years ago is a fork of a server created 23 days ago using files copied 1:1.

We are on the other side of mirror...we took the blue pill.

Regards.

[blackrazor]

We are on the other side of mirror...we took the blue pill.

I took both pills and my head exploded. I'm still busy cleaning up the mess.

[blackrazor]

Current situation: Not only have I not heard anyone in the current TMW Committee claim personal ownership of the game data, I have universally heard distaste for the very idea.
We are being extremely careful to prevent anyone from being able to hold the game hostage in the future.

I agree with you.

It is distasteful to claim personal ownership of the game data. But it is equally distasteful to throw the most senior, highest ranking (of active) team members off the team, without rules (constitution), precedent, or warning, just because you decided you cannot get along with her, even though it is clear that plenty of successful development occurred under her tenure, from 2006 to March 9th, 2013, and that there would be no game over which to fight, had she not administered and hosted for all those years. If it turns out that legally she owns the datafiles that represent the virtual world from which you stripped her of all the stripes she earned, then I guess it's Karma. Maybe it's also some necessary leverage that will allow both sides to come to a compromise, mend fences, reunite the community, and put this whole ugly mess behind us. Here's hoping.

The game is being held hostage now. I feel like more of a hostage now than ever under Platyna, with the community split, and MadCamel hosting the TMWC's copy of it. There is still no transparency, no constitution, and you tried to keep MadCamel's hosting a secret, even though he is a very controversial player, who even now says very vulgar things and gets away with it: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 5&start=18

[Platyna]

As I said, I claim co-ownership of those files (the first owner of any account data is the player who owns it) due to responsibility I do take for these files.

These files were safe in my hands for many years and now they are in hands of abusers. I can't allow that.

o11c, Frost, Jenalya - last call - hand me the current copy of the files and remove them from your hostings. We may then talk about further cooperation, but for it is neccessary for you to underestand that what you have done was harmful for that project and you have to act in a mature manner, dropping that three old kid attitude "I don't want to play in your sandbox, because I hate you, so I take all your sand and make myself another sandbox, and if you come with your mommy and take the sand back I will never play with you anymore".

Regards.

[Big Crunch]

Current situation: Not only have I not heard anyone in the current TMW Committee claim personal ownership of the game data, I have universally heard distaste for the very idea.
We are being extremely careful to prevent anyone from being able to hold the game hostage in the future.

I agree with you.

It is distasteful to claim personal ownership of the game data. But it is equally distasteful to throw the most senior, highest ranking (of active) team members off the team, without rules (constitution), precedent, or warning, just because you decided you cannot get along with her, even though it is clear that plenty of successful development occurred under her tenure, from 2006 to March 9th, 2013, and that there would be no game over which to fight, had she not administered and hosted for all those years. If it turns out that legally she owns the datafiles that represent the virtual world from which you stripped her of all the stripes she earned, then I guess it's Karma. Maybe it's also some necessary leverage that will allow both sides to come to a compromise, mend fences, reunite the community, and put this whole ugly mess behind us. Here's hoping.

The game is being held hostage now. I feel like more of a hostage now than ever under Platyna, with the community split, and MadCamel hosting the TMWC's copy of it. There is still no transparency, no constitution, and you tried to keep MadCamel's hosting a secret, even though he is a very controversial player, who even now says very vulgar things and gets away with it: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 5&start=18

actually there is more transparency now than ever. We've clearly shown who is a member of The Mana World Committee, clearly stated from what pools these members are pulled, and clearly stated that everyone in the group has an equal say in decisions. There have been no rule or policy changes that affect the player base, and any decision that the committee has come to has been shared publicly.

We as a group and individuals have generally decided to try to remain out of the flame wars as they are generally counterproductive and have degraded to name calling and general ill will toward the other party.

Regarding MadCamel.

Let me start by relaying a bit of history. For all of the issues that Platyna has stated against him, Platyna voted to unban him and reinstate him as part of the project, which included the same level of access to the server data he has now. So to me its strange that all of a sudden he's a threat.

MadCamel and I have a tumultuous history. Point of fact, he was the strongest voice against me becoming a GM. Because of this history, I had a hard time accepting him as the new host. After researching some forum posts regarding him, which interestingly enough, revealed that Bjorn was initially going to accept him as the host of TMW years ago when Platyna decided to stop hosting for a brief time. She eventually changed her mind and Bjorn decided to keep the game with her. After researching a bit, I expressed my concerns regarding MadCamel in the private IRC channel. Both Bjorn and Freeyorp were present for the conversation. After their responses I was left with the impression that he, as a host, would be perfectly acceptable. He IS NOT a member of The Mana World Committee, he is an Advisor. He has explicitly expressed no desire to influence decisions regarding the server content, moderation, governing. Taking all this into consideration, I fully, 100%, accept him as Host and Advisor. Understand one thing, though. He speaks in no official capacity, as claimed by his signature.

All of this talk of 'being held hostage' is silly. The game goes on. We are putting out content, moderating, and continuing as usual. This feeling of being held hostage is just that, a feeling.

I personally have nothing against Platyna and understand that her name calling is out of frustration and anger. I would be willing to accept her as an equal, but never again as a superior.

BC