Dear TMW Community.

A place for players to do role playing, discuss their guilds, etc.
TeZeR.D
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by TeZeR.D » 10 Mar 2013, 03:02

What is this?
The idea of the fact that the current devs were reckless to the fact they didn't wait for Platyna's response? This was reckless and simply pathetic by the team. They should have waited for the all go, and got everyone on board with it. They forgot one of the most important people to get the go from; Platyna. This was stupid.
Just my thoughts.
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Big Crunch
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Big Crunch » 10 Mar 2013, 04:49

Platyna had the ability to stop the move out of spite, if she had wished. She could have removed everyone's access to the server, thereby eliminating the possibility of the move all together. She had absolute power regarding the game and that kind of power has now been removed.

There were several reasons for the move. Two, I will list.

1. Lag. Platinum has for quite a while, had some issue with lag. At first, we where told it was because the server lacked enough RAM, and that was addressed by several people, myself included, contributing money to purchase more. Then it was said that there was a coding issue when every instance of the server that was made public by a third party, including the test server, never showed such problems.

2. Communication. Platyna was rarely around and when she did come around, she tossed threats and vague references to discussions had years before most of us began playing. Even when asked for clarification or explanation we receive comments like 'i dont want to get into it' or 'you should have read it' and little else. There is one particular thread where the GM's ask for clarification about a statement made concerning a rule and there was no response for over 2 weeks, and that was direct request with 'Platyna' in the title of the thread. Now, the GHP as a whole will make those decisions and clarifications in a timely manner. Also supporting this reason is the email Platyna claims to have not received, which I was CC'd on.

This all said, I wish there was a way to have done this without hurting Platyna's feelings. This was obviously not the absolute best way to go about it, however it was seen as the only reasonable course of action for the project.

To alleviate concerns regarding a power grab, the only thing that will change will be Platyna's removal from the GHP. Platyna is still welcome to contribute to the project in any way she chooses. There will be a post in the future explaining what the GHP does and who is included in the GHP for the sake of clarity for the community in general. For those of you that knew who was in the GHP prior to the move, there will be no surprises.

BC
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Chat dialogue posted by Ablu

Post by Tasisia » 10 Mar 2013, 08:41

Ablu wrote:Since you quoted o11c. Here is the full context:
The discussion happened in two channels (#themanaworld on freenode and on the old irc server):
[22:05:08] <-- platyna (~platyna@c69-143.icpnet.pl) has quit (Quit: leaving)
[22:05:16] -*- Frostypants sighs
[/code]

Time is GMT +1 (Berlin timezone)
Thank you Ablu, I missed that chat, very interesting. Wow Platyna is very upset - throwing such insults around. Very Sad.

Hmmm I thought this was a community game. I recommend to people to go back and read the chat Ablu posted if you didn't get to see it first hand.

Tas :(
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Nard » 10 Mar 2013, 09:54

o11c wrote:
Platyna wrote:I expect to be banned soon, as I am not letting it go, and at least I will try to inform TMW community how the things really were.
Unlike you, we don't ban people or hide threads when we have a disagreement with them. You would have to be *very* disruptive before we would consider banning you - we will err on the side of caution.

We deliberately withheld some of our reasons from the initial announcement to protect your reputation. Thankfully, you have now taken that away yourself.
You are absolutely unfair. The only decision I could find Is Salah's ban which was a good one as this guy still continues to pollute this game.
I can remind that you o11c, were reported to have abused of kick command. Maybe you should look into your own garden.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
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Platyna
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 10 Mar 2013, 11:01

Big Crunch wrote:Platyna had the ability to stop the move out of spite, if she had wished. She could have removed everyone's access to the server, thereby eliminating the possibility of the move all together. She had absolute power regarding the game and that kind of power has now been removed.

There were several reasons for the move. Two, I will list.

1. Lag. Platinum has for quite a while, had some issue with lag. At first, we where told it was because the server lacked enough RAM, and that was addressed by several people, myself included, contributing money to purchase more. Then it was said that there was a coding issue when every instance of the server that was made public by a third party, including the test server, never showed such problems.

2. Communication. Platyna was rarely around and when she did come around, she tossed threats and vague references to discussions had years before most of us began playing. Even when asked for clarification or explanation we receive comments like 'i dont want to get into it' or 'you should have read it' and little else. There is one particular thread where the GM's ask for clarification about a statement made concerning a rule and there was no response for over 2 weeks, and that was direct request with 'Platyna' in the title of the thread. Now, the GHP as a whole will make those decisions and clarifications in a timely manner. Also supporting this reason is the email Platyna claims to have not received, which I was CC'd on.

This all said, I wish there was a way to have done this without hurting Platyna's feelings. This was obviously not the absolute best way to go about it, however it was seen as the only reasonable course of action for the project.

To alleviate concerns regarding a power grab, the only thing that will change will be Platyna's removal from the GHP. Platyna is still welcome to contribute to the project in any way she chooses. There will be a post in the future explaining what the GHP does and who is included in the GHP for the sake of clarity for the community in general. For those of you that knew who was in the GHP prior to the move, there will be no surprises.

BC
I am fully aware that the machine was blamed for lag, the topic with diagnostics made by and one of the members of the team which clearly shows that problem was generated by the daemon some kind memleak is of course hidden, but yes I was already informed that you tried to get players consent lying to them that lag was because Platinum. Well, what can I say, it is the dirtiest ever way to gaining control over the project. What is most interesting - there were no o11c as the admin there were no lag, server worked fine, on the worse configuration, oldest eA and similar player base, that's why I was considering to remove him and I told him that.

It is better to exploit the trust of initial project admins and get rid of the most resistant one, than using OSS, and make a server, advertise it and build a community - I did it, and I have put my time, work and money, just to be kicked off the community I have build by a power hungry kiddie, who "can't work" if has no absolute control over basicaly everything.

This is pathetic, and I wouldn't be even replying so such amount of slander and nonsense, but I will not let you proceed peacefuly with fooling the players.

I never expected a TMW team member to ever do something like that to the project.

Regards.
Last edited by Platyna on 10 Mar 2013, 11:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Nard » 10 Mar 2013, 11:01

Code: Select all

[21:43:13] --> Platyna (platyna@platinum-E88D7ABE.edu.pl) has joined #themanaworld
[21:43:36] <Platyna> WTF?
[21:43:58] <o11c> Platyna: what? we left.
[21:44:20] <Platyna> You left what?
[21:44:50] <o11c> TMW has left Platinum, didn't you notice?
[21:44:54] <Frost> Platyna: we sent you email earlier this week.
[21:45:01] <Frost> A day later, we posted to the forums
[21:45:03] <Platyna> I am an admin of TMW.
[21:45:08] <o11c> not anymore
[21:45:13] <Platyna> Says who?
[21:45:27] <o11c> says everyone except you
[21:45:28] <Frost> You hosted TMW for many years.
[21:45:40] <Frost> That was valuable, and I'm sure also a burden at times.
[21:45:42] <Platyna> You have stolen data from TMW.
[21:45:52] <Frost> (especially with the complaints about lag and such)
[21:46:24] <Frost> We notified you of the intention to move to another host, then announced it in public, then made the move.
...
o11c wrote:But, I haven't heard any complaints from players yet.
First one: Its seems that this move, even if it may be good for the project has been conducted without following the elementary rules of politeness: Platyna should have been made aware of the move possibility, as every GHP member, before the decision was taken.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
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Platyna
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 10 Mar 2013, 11:03

Nard: I see no reason why this move would be good for the project - the all reasons stated above are pure lie. Also if they told me that they want to exploit inactive admins, and haul the data elsewhere I would tell them that I do bought a new machine just for TMW, and I am planning to put it online. AFAIR I have mentioned a plan to move tmw for its own machine, on IRC some time ago, so they know they would have no arguments and I would disagree and Bjorn and Elven wouldn't change the DNS. The only way this plan could succeed is to do it dirty way fast, without any notifice or asking for opinion and then remove all my privs and pretend it was because of lag not the power, it is same lie as "the developers also agreed" - all decent developers will now rather leave - because who would like to work for a project that is now so far from Open Source values and modus operandi?

What was good for the project? That the whole team, that consist mostly decent and nice people and whole community has seen how the old contributors are "thanked" by the new additions to the team?

Bjorn wrote me a message that he doesn't like the way o11c works, and allowed the move because, basically the blackmail - "you will make me admin or project will die" "you will make me the admin or there will be no new content updates" etc. etc.

o11c: simple message: we don't need here such people, hand the files and go away if you have any elements of decency left. I have a machine for TMW ready (not the target one but also good), so I will move it there.


Regards.
Last edited by Platyna on 10 Mar 2013, 11:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Nard » 10 Mar 2013, 11:15

Platyna wrote: I am fully aware that the machine was blamed for lag, the topic with diagnostics made by and one of the members of the team which clearly shows that problem was generated by the daemon some kind memleak is of course hidden, but yes I was already informed that you tried to get players consent lying to them that lag was because Platinum. Well, what can I say, it is the dirtiest ever way to gaining control over the project. What is most interesting - there were no o11c as the admin there were no lag, server worked fine, on the worse configuration, oldest eA and similar player base, that's why I was considering to remove him and I told him that.
I don't agree with that: As far as I can remember all Frost's and o11c's posts and PMs were tending to prove that neither machine or network were the cause of lags, at least as unique causes. This was why I was driven to think of other possible causes especially in the way compilation was conducted after a remark from v0id about path calculation. This makes me wonder why the move decision has been taken though (once again it maybe the good one, only future will say it).
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
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Platyna
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 10 Mar 2013, 11:19

They keep saying to players that the move was because machine was causing lags. :) I have seen it myself, otherwise I wouldn't believe as well. But they even told ME that. I remember those posts too, so I was very suprised hearing such lies.

If we get rid of o11c and no one will want to do the content updates, I will do them myself until the appropriate person comes (I don't know if someone remembers but I was the content dev, and when I was the content dev there were no lags), or I will pay someone to do them, simple as that.

I thought I left the project in hands of competent and decent persons, I was wrong and I am sorry for that.

Regards.
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Alige
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Alige » 10 Mar 2013, 11:37

It is just sad to see how TMW developers acted. A long talk with Platyna or maybe a public meeting on IRC might of helped resolving the lag issues the project suffered. Because of that, we now have developers and players going away. I don't think kicking Platyna out was worth losing that much of our, yet small, community.

I recently experienced some lag, even after the change of host, so it is still not fixed, thus I do not think Platyna was the main problem here. Of course, if she was more active, this would of changed everything, too bad she woke up after the harm was done.

I guess most people who took part in the change of host decision were not fully aware how hard Platyna works IRL. She has a great carreer in front of her, without doubt, and her exams take her all of her time. In addition, she spent hundreds of dollars keeping the server up for many years! How can you guys kick her out in a week without any discussion?!

Even though she has not the best social skills compared to other people, she really took care of TMW without asking anything to anyone. I would like to thank her for the really hard work she did over the past years, maintaining the server up. Too bad she wasn't active as much as we needed her to be.

Best regards,
--Alige
Last edited by Alige on 11 Mar 2013, 18:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Nard » 10 Mar 2013, 12:10

Big Crunch wrote:Platyna had the ability to stop the move out of spite, if she had wished. She could have removed everyone's access to the server, thereby eliminating the possibility of the move all together. She had absolute power regarding the game and that kind of power has now been removed.
Big Crunch wrote:1. Lag. Platinum has for quite a while, had some issue with lag. At first, we where told it was because the server lacked enough RAM, and that was addressed by several people, myself included, contributing money to purchase more. Then it was said that there was a coding issue when every instance of the server that was made public by a third party, including the test server, never showed such problems.

It was also said that the unused accounts were among the causes, three purges showed it was not. The first admin to begin a serious analysis was Frost. His results showed that lags could not be explained by machine lacks or network, so we are at the very beginning of the problem analysis as we have only negative results. Lags occur on test server too: I found ( in fact we: cody, Gina, Johanne and me) a repeatable condition were they occur, the only person to pay some trust to my words was jenalya. No one took soe time to verify.
Big Crunch wrote:2. Communication. Platyna was rarely around and when she did come around, she tossed threats and vague references to discussions had years before most of us began playing. Even when asked for clarification or explanation we receive comments like 'i dont want to get into it' or 'you should have read it' and little else. There is one particular thread where the GM's ask for clarification about a statement made concerning a rule and there was no response for over 2 weeks, and that was direct request with 'Platyna' in the title of the thread. Now, the GHP as a whole will make those decisions and clarifications in a timely manner. Also supporting this reason is the email Platyna claims to have not received, which I was CC'd on.
Communication is indeed a problem: I asked several months ago for a wiki update and extension installation. Wiki still waits though several emails, IRC interventions, forum PMs... Now none took care of updating it on the move occasion too though all admins were aware of my requests; but wiki is not that important...
Big Crunch wrote:This all said, I wish there was a way to have done this without hurting Platyna's feelings. This was obviously not the absolute best way to go about it, however it was seen as the only reasonable course of action for the project.
Politeness is always reasonable, it doesn't mean that words or decision do not hurt.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Nard » 10 Mar 2013, 13:08

@o11c:

We already knew that you were able to hide major code changes which would require the whole Team agreement and dromn your gaps in a sea of fake assertions.

You already showed that you were able to abuse of your position in game or on forum even if you are a noob on some topic (music not to say).

We now see that you are also to be an oaf towards someone in front of whom you are a kid and you should take your hat off.

But beware, you are now in first line, have to solve the major problem of this server and have no one to hide behind anymore. Perhaps someone will post a topic like "serious proposition to make evol server the official one" in a not so far future.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
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Platyna
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 10 Mar 2013, 13:36

Nard, I have set a web administrator for TMW when I found out that I have no time to do it.
[23:32] o11c: since one of our reasons to move in the first place was that we believed Platyna was being harmful to the game ... can anyone explain *why* we should have discussed it with her before we knew we could do it?
Now I receive declarations from old TMW GHP members and players, who are declaring to leave if the situation wont change, they will be all forwarded to Bjorn and Elven (if the authors agree).

Regards.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by argul » 10 Mar 2013, 14:00

Bjørn wrote:My advice to you is, let it go. The Mana World is driven by new forces now, but at least it's driven by forces at all.
This! I can second that statement.
---
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Tasisia » 10 Mar 2013, 14:26

This is all very depressing.

One thing though - I don't think anyone should post comments about what someone else has said to them unless it has been said in public and can be quoted from forum posts or saved chat logs etc. The person should make the comments themselves in public, (if they wish their thoughts to be public), otherwise it is just here-say.

Anyway I play this game to get rid of stress from everyday worries and right now I am thinking of swapping to the WII.
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