Dear TMW Community.

A place for players to do role playing, discuss their guilds, etc.
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Nard
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Nard » 12 Mar 2013, 07:14

Platyna wrote:BTW: Now I learn, in a deep conspiracy, that the reason of lag is that eA sends duplicated packets...and they knew is since quite a while...
I may add: eA also send empty packets. They can cause the untimely disconnections that all users eperienced (I experienced some even after move) especially (maybe) the ones where you appear to be still connected when you reconnect.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Nard » 12 Mar 2013, 08:47

Frost wrote:
  • GMs (Big Crunch, Narus, mrgrey, Tiana, Prsm) (except Alons who is away)
  • admins (Frost and Jenalya)
  • content lead (Jenalya)
  • programming lead (o11c)
The reason why I'm unclear on the exact list of who is in GHP is that I never saw an official definition. Also, we have been working more as a "move team" recently, so we pull people in for certain help.
In the past, any decision made by others in GHP was always subject to interpretation and approval by Platyna, so GHP didn't seem so useful to me. Besides that, I talk with a lot of people, without regard for status or affiliation. Some of the people I most respect are not in that list.
v0id wrote:They did.
As part of the GHP, I've given my support for the move to happen.
Platyna wrote:Argul just wrote that that "due to recent events he is leaving GHP"
Is Platyna right saying that Pjotr was in GHP?
Please give exact list or people (including me) may think something is unclear.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
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0x0BAL
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by 0x0BAL » 12 Mar 2013, 09:13

I dont like o11c too , because first time i talkewithin IRC he started insulting me and dudnt want to help.
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Platyna
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 12 Mar 2013, 11:18

Look, if we want to achieve something and keep the game in hands of a resonable person, who, as you noticed never abused her power instead of in hands of mentally unstable person with who we basically all have bad experiences we have to focus to convincing Bjorn and Elven to change the DNS records back and o11c/Jenalya/Frost to hand current backup.

Let's summarize the discussion:
1. All of technical reasons for the move stated by o11c were false (not all developers agreed, not everyone in the community, the lag issue is a bug in eA not machine fault etc.).
2. The real reason to move the server was to get rid of me, as I refused to give developers GM rights (for the good division in powers in the project).
3. The move happened in great rush, I haven't got any notice, and after 8 years I was just kicked off.
4. o11c threatened that if we move server back there will be no new server updates - it clearly shows his personality when comparing to mine (when I got into an argument with project admins several years ago I was still hosting the game).
5. o11c is mentally unstable and was already proven now and in the bast to abuse his powers.
6. I know from a trusted sources that o11c is NOT owner of the machine TMW server runs on, he got a virtual machine from a person completely unrelated to TMW! So the server files are now in hand of mentally instable person and a complete stranger.
7. Therefore Elven and Bjorn were basically fooled into o11c plan.
8. All current files - eA/forums/website were removed from my host.

All we can do now is write to them and tell them that we do not agree with such way of conduct and request that TMW moves back off the power of persons like that.

We have to answer ourselves important questions:
Is it the was a OSS, community based project is supposed to be managed?
Now the admins with come in result of putsch?
If a person was capable of doing such things to get power, what else is he capable to?

BTW: GHP was simply a group of people who has official contributor status - a developer, an admin, or a GM (representative of players). To join GHP you simply needed to keep contributing to the game, that wasn't any closed circle.

Regards.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by MadCamel » 12 Mar 2013, 12:47

These types of concerns are -exactly- why I think recent backups of the player databases should be held by a neutral and less emotionally involved party. Preferably the person in control of the domain name or someone just as senior.

This would protect the players and community from any future abuses of power as changing hosts would be easy and nothing could be 'held hostage'. It also might go a long way to setting peoples mind at ease and minimizing the current upset.

From a technical standpoint this would be simple to accomplish. Daily tar, remote server scps it from the host, validates the data and lets someone know if it's bogus or today's dump hasn't happened.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 12 Mar 2013, 12:49

MadCamel, I was doing backups, and I have once already got into argument with Bjorn and I never used TMW community and/or server files in my personal fights, so I don't know what do you suggest, that I am not impartial and I am not trustworthy?

Regards.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Jenalya » 12 Mar 2013, 12:58

To clear up the confusion:

The active members taking part in the decision to move were
- the GMs (Big Crunch, Mistergrey, Narus, prsm, Tiana)
- senior developers (V0id, Pjotr/argul, o11c and me)
- Frost as admin (o11c and me also have admin access, but I see our main role as developers)

Pjotr was skeptical about the move, but didn't object and helped testing the new servers performance.

We contacted and got advice from inactive members who are somewhat still around, which is Bjorn, Crush, Freeyorp and Elven.
There are some more members in the ghp forum group who haven't been active in several months up to several years, who were not involved in the decision making.
I'm happy to see that the recent events made some of them show interest in tmw again, and as far as I've seen they support or tolerate the move.

There was an ingame meeting yesterday where a lot of questions were answered. I'm attaching the backlog of the chat.
backlog.txt
(89.54 KiB) Downloaded 108 times
We agreed to give Elven access to the files and/or send backups to him.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by blackrazor » 12 Mar 2013, 13:11

I think a lot of the interest currently by players in the composition and powers of the GHP rests in the belief (perhaps mistaken) that it somehow had the power to rightfully change hosts, effectively kicking Platyna out of the command structure, where she has been for 8+ years, and to do it in a relatively rapid fashion, with little outside consultation from the larger community. That is a lot of power. It would explain why players want to know more.

Personally, I saw the running / admin / ownership of TMW as a more complicated thing, with different parts balancing each other out. Sort of like how many modern governments run, with a clearly defined separation of powers.

Developers: Owners and maintainers of the GPL and creative portions of the game, including the server and client codebases, scripting, art assets, GIT repository and perhaps the wiki.

GMs: The enforcers of the rules governing the players. Also to be helpful to the players regarding in game help and perhaps the running of some non-scripted events, like trivia, with prizes from donations (not spawning them directly).

Host: The sponsor of the machine and network connection on which a specific iteration of TMW runs. They pay for and are responsible for the hardware. By iteration, I am referring to the specific save-files, player-files, and perhaps custom content specific to that iteration not found in the common GIT repository. I always supposed that the host owned and was responsible for those iteration-specific files and was also the final arbiter of game rules for the iteration of the game running upon their hardware. They also assume all legal liability for the running iteration of the game upon their hardware, its content, and its participants, as appropriate. I would have supposed that no one could relieve them of this responsibility / privilege, without their expressed permission. Platyna is / was our host.

DNS owner: The owner of the domain name "themanaworld.org" This would be elvenprogrammer, to the best of my knowledge. A host (see above) can change domain names. Elven's role is less clearly defined, as he has not been active in recent years, at all.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 12 Mar 2013, 13:16

I wasn't just a host, I was community admin, I have basically built that community from scratch (when I became an admin we had 5 players online in peak) and o11c/Frost/Jenalya had to right to kick me out, no matter who hosts the server. But I opposed giving them extra powers, so they moved to a host (that turned to not belong to them - it is a machine rented by someone who is complete stranger and not involved in TMW).

What is funny - Frost sells players such quotes like "Platyna did so much hard work for the project", "she was a valuable host" etc. - it is all to just show how he is resonable and kind.

Frost, if you started, then finish: Platyna did so much hard work, and was a valuable host, so we have stolen her work, kicked her off the team, fooled game founders and threatened the community that there will be no more updates if the rightfull admin of the project regains her status, lied to everyone and now we keep slander her.

Good riddance.

Anyway, those who has TMW good on their mind, read the posting above, especially this:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 95#p131995

Write to Elven and Bjorn so they would come back to their senses.

If you decide to leave TMW in hands of a persons capable of doing things like described above - your decision - but this is the way to TMW destruction - as a community admin has to be a honest, trustworthy and mentally well balanced person - and that person is mainly responsible for the success of the project, as OSS project is nothing without the community. Also I would like to remind you that currently server runs on a machine which is not owned by o11c, so if his "friend" will decide to resign from dedicated machine TMW server may one day simply dissapear, not to mention that all your data is now in hands of a complete stranger.

Very wise, Elven, very.

Regards.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by blackrazor » 12 Mar 2013, 14:52

I'm logging in from my daughter's this morning, in case any forum admins notice a different IP. I've been bouncing around a lot in real life lately, with very little time. My life has been chaotic and busy, to say the least. But I have a nice warm spot in my heart for TMW, as always, and so I remain very concerned by recent events.

I am not saying that Platyna was a perfect person or host, but from even back in the days when I first joined, and Platyna, Crush, and Elvenprogrammer were the dominant authority in the game, it always seemed to me that Platyna was clearly the host and de-facto top admin of the Platinum-iteration of the game. The code and art are GPL and OSS-developed, but the Platinum-iteration save-files belonged to our host / admin, Platyna. The fact that she gave senior dev / admins access to make changes and backups, does not give them the right to take it away from her.

I totally agree that the developers should not be chained to platinum, and if they dislike the management style of Platyna so much, they should be free to make their own new server, and to even designate it as the official server. Heck, they can even convince Elven to given them themanaworld.org domain name, I guess. But that is entirely a different thing than taking the save-files from the platinum server and claiming it as their own, and not even leaving Platyna with a copy. In theory, Platyna should be free to host the platinum save-files under themanaworldplatinum.org, if need be.

But this is essentially the problem with secret GHP and no clearly defined rules for governing such big changes. We will have big change, and never really know if it was properly done, because everything was and still is quite secret. People in power will make reasonable claims, and the people previously in power will also make reasonable claims, and onlookers will have to arbitrarily take one side's word for it, because there are no clearly defined rules in place to handle such a thing as this. Both sides have themselves to blame for the drama that ensues, since both sides had a vested interest in keeping the opaqueness in place, when it suited them. I'm not really blaming anyone, just venting frustration at what can result from a lack of transparency. I would have hoped that the GPL - OSS nature of the project would have fostered a greater sense of transparency, that could have greatly altered exactly how these recent events would have unfolded (although maybe not the final result), but alas, it is what it is.

I still have warm feelings for TMW and for everyone that contributed to it, over the years. I wish you all well. Peace.

EDIT P.S. I wish this had at least been handled in a manner similar to other recent large changes, such as the prioritization of TMW-Eathena-server development over the originally planned mana-server, and the move to 4144's client over the mana-client Basically, with less of a sense of extreme urgency and more public consultation in the forums.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by BoomerTheKran » 12 Mar 2013, 16:31

Please everyone, stop being insulting. It really sullies your point of view. As for mental instability, it's an old companion of mine. If you want to learn more about it, come to my house. We have a plethora of it here, and I am its lead developer. Ask my shrink.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by WildX » 12 Mar 2013, 17:36

blackrazor wrote: Host: The sponsor of the machine and network connection on which a specific iteration of TMW runs. They pay for and are responsible for the hardware. By iteration, I am referring to the specific save-files, player-files, and perhaps custom content specific to that iteration not found in the common GIT repository. I always supposed that the host owned and was responsible for those iteration-specific files and was also the final arbiter of game rules for the iteration of the game running upon their hardware. They also assume all legal liability for the running iteration of the game upon their hardware, its content, and its participants, as appropriate. I would have supposed that no one could relieve them of this responsibility / privilege, without their expressed permission. Platyna is / was our host.

DNS owner: The owner of the domain name "themanaworld.org" This would be elvenprogrammer, to the best of my knowledge. A host (see above) can change domain names. Elven's role is less clearly defined, as he has not been active in recent years, at all.
I agree with this. Just because the current "GHP" decided not a week ago to redefine everything, that doesn't mean that definition is valid. This one makes much more sense to me.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by *Delasia* » 12 Mar 2013, 19:30

Platyna wrote:Look, if we want to achieve something and keep the game in hands of a resonable person, who, as you noticed never abused her power instead of in hands of mentally unstable person with who we basically all have bad experiences we have to focus to convincing Bjorn and Elven to change the DNS records back and o11c/Jenalya/Frost to hand current backup.
Never abused her powers? In who's mind?
Should the fact that when Mana was in its infantcy you threatened to pull the plug (more than once) if you werent given full access. Or how about the time when you threatened to kick all the files out if a certain people were not removed/banned. Or how about deleting entire threads in the forums because it didnt conform to your personal ideals.

How about the unstable part? Getting kicked from a well established IRC domain because she decides to launch a verbally abusive rant to the administrators and call them everything short of swamp slime because they refuse to follow your suggestions.
Or attacking a whole group of players/friends of a well established player when she took deathly ill, and forcing them to pass crucial information on said players recovery OUTSIDE of all mana established environments. Reason given that you wouldnt want people talking if you were sick.

You have held Bjorn and Elven hostage for eight years. You keep claiming you are rational and stable, yet everything you have posted, everything you displayed in these eight pages of rants clearly shows otherwise.

People like PRSM, Tiana, Jenalya and Frost have made ever effort to make the game a community driven experience, and not a tyranical dictatorship of personal whims.

Platyna, your personality duality have obviously caused some memory loss.
You administered the game like Hitler, and see yourself like Jesus.

Take the actions you think you have the right to take, but stop the drama.
Prove you have the best interest of the game and the players at heart.
If you think you are the better choice, then prove it.
Pull the GIT, request the backup from Elven (if he will give it to you) and see what the players decide.

Put forward your best, and the results will reflect the truth.......

Unless, THE TRUTH SCARES YOU !!
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Platyna » 12 Mar 2013, 19:35

Delasia, I removed your GM powers due to numerous compliants, simply get over it and don't derange this thread.

Regards.
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Re: Dear TMW Community.

Post by Ablu » 12 Mar 2013, 19:39

Platyna wrote:simply get over it and don't derange this thread.
For all^
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