Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

A place for players to do role playing, discuss their guilds, etc.

Is democracy a good idea for The Mana World in the future?

Yes
7
23%
No
18
60%
I have no clue
3
10%
I have given up and am abandoning this entirely(this is the sad one)
2
7%
 
Total votes: 30
BoomerTheKran
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Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by BoomerTheKran » 10 Mar 2013, 19:52

Can we come to some sort of democratic arrangement?

I have an idea that seems complex at first glance, but is really quite simple. All the numbers are adjustable, as a voting majority of the community finds acceptable.

First, we would need an additional test server, for devs and GMs only, herein referred to as "GM/dev Server."

"Content" is defined as any changes, including, but not limited to, server code, items, and quests, that would change the player experience in any way.

"Active" is defined as being online, on the server mentioned, for any majority of the prior 90 days to content being added.

"Current Test Server" is defined as the current testing server, the one at caliban.homeip.net.

"Official Server" is defined as the one located at themanaworld.org.

"Normal Players" is defined as players that do not have privileges of dev or GM anywhere, excluding the low level of @gm allowed on Current Test Server.

"Community" is defined as everyone involved in The Mana World in any way, including administrators, GMs, devs, and Normal Players.

A. All Content is voted upon first by devs with a majority of 70% to pass, with a minimum of 60% of Active devs voting, using new GM/dev Server. All devs are required to alert all other devs as to any changes at all.

B. Content on GM/dev Server is then checked for consistency among the GMs, who will suggest changes. All GMs and devs are required to alert all other GMs and devs as to all changes made to any Content. Following changes, return to step A. When changes are satisfactory, Content is then subsequently voted on by Active GMs, requiring a 60% approval of a minimum of 60% of Active GMs voting, to roll changes into Current Test Server, which is open to everyone for testing.

C. Normal Players on Current Test Server are allowed to test for one week, and furthermore to vote during that week, but required to give at least two reasons as to whether the new Content is good or bad in order to have their vote counted, and their account is checked for use of that Content. There must be a majority of 51% of a minimum of 15 votes by Normal Players, not GMs or devs, in order for the Content to be rolled into Official Server for everyone to use.

D. Anyone caught abusing any of these rules is banned from ALL TESTING SERVERS and their IP address will be monitored for new account creation. Abuse is defined as making multiple accounts for testing, falsifying any information, treating others in the GM, dev, or Normal Players groups as anything but equals. Other forms of abuse can be defined and voted upon by the Community as a whole.

---------------------------------

I really don't like to see all this infighting, betrayal, lack of communication, and distrust. I respect all that has been brought to this wonderful community by everyone involved, from the players that play once a year to the admins that administrate. You have all been valuable and I would be very disappointed for The Mana World community to fail. I have been here over three years and like it here very much and want to stay.

---------------------------------

For all of you that are probably wondering, I am not, nor have I ever been, directly involved in the government or legal system. This comment is added for a modicum of levity, I hope.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by Ablu » 10 Mar 2013, 20:04

This vote is kind of silly. I would not make strict rules like this. It is good to have some guidelines but I would mainly trust the rationality of the devs. Making to strict rules just slows all down. Also making a difference between a development server and a public testing server does not sound very open to me. Anyone who wants to develop or is interested in it should be able to get all infos he need and should be able to try everything he wants.

So I wont vote since the vote is silly in my eyes.

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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by o11c » 10 Mar 2013, 20:12

Agreed with Ablu: this is completely silly.

We haven't had any drama about Content, anyway.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by Crush » 10 Mar 2013, 20:43

TMW is and always was a meritocracy. When you want to have a say about what goes into the game and what doesn't, then become a developer. The opinion of players is always valued, but the final decision is with those who earned the right to have creative influence.

I don't see a reason why those who do not contribute themselves should have the power to reject the work of those who do.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by Jenalya » 10 Mar 2013, 20:53

This would be too much bureaucratic overhead to get anything in the game.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by BoomerTheKran » 10 Mar 2013, 23:14

o11c wrote:Agreed with Ablu: this is completely silly.

We haven't had any drama about Content, anyway.
In my definition of Content, this includes ALL things that have an effect on the game. This would also include moving the server. The move would have had to be approved by vote of the Community as a whole, and not just the devs deciding it was moving day.

According to an whois query, Eugenio Favalli currently owns the domain registered as themanaworld.org. I don't know exactly who that is. If it is or was Platyna that registered themanaworld.org, continue reading. Moving that domain without the registrant's express permission is a crime in most countries. IF the domain name had a transfer of owners or addresses, or both, regardless of whether you had the admin rights to do so or not, it was required by the registrar to notify the registrant. This could be an international nightmare legally for all involved, as the transfer left the country it was registered in without the owners permission. Can you say "extradition?" Voting could have brought this matter to the forefront and helped to avoid it.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by tux9th » 10 Mar 2013, 23:16

This is elvenprogrammer,
he is the founder of this project, he gave permission, he did the DNS change.

regards
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by Platyna » 11 Mar 2013, 00:16

ElvenProgrammer - inactive admin, who was basicaly fooled to do that (he was probably told that all the developers and community agreed, and I don't think if he was informed that I will be kicked out the team I worked for 8 years of my life).

Anyway, about the democracy - I have introduced some sort of limited democracy to players, when chosing their leaders (this was just horribly violated, as several persons not chosen by the community has GM rights now), also I think players should be informed and asked about the opinion of new content. Now the game is a grinding engine which I think is not good.

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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by Frost » 11 Mar 2013, 00:39

The doors are open to anyone who wishes to get involved, to the extent they desire or are able to.
Democracy does not exclude petty politics, nor does it always inspire people to "put their effort where their mouth is."

We need more development and more involvement. We don't need to bury every change in argument, and it's easy to argue against something when you have nothing invested.

Before anyone gets excited about possible criminal activity, I encourage you to read about the move. It has been clearly explained.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by Crush » 11 Mar 2013, 01:03

This thread is not about the server move. That topic is discussed

here

and

here

This thread is about BoomerTheKran's suggestion how development should be organized.

I removed some posts which were only about the server move and contributed nothing to the topic at hand, but left those posts which also had on-topic content.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by o11c » 11 Mar 2013, 02:28

BoomerTheKran wrote:In my definition of Content, this includes ALL things that have an effect on the game. This would also include moving the server. The move would have had to be approved by vote of the Community as a whole, and not just the devs deciding it was moving day.
Sorry, but I think that's a *very* confusing and inaccurate definition of Content. Content has always meant "scripts, items, monsters, graphics, music, ..."

The GHP is currently having a private discussion about the topic of who has the right to make what decisions.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by BoomerTheKran » 11 Mar 2013, 03:17

The GHP is currently having a private discussion about the topic of who has the right to make what decisions.
A secret meeting of the self-appointed seems to me like a Bilderberg Group conference. We're not puppets here, we are people. Let us all in on these things. Post the entire meeting log, please. If you want to be truly open and honest, allow anyone that wants to see to follow, even if we are not allowed input, the meeting as it progresses. There should be no reason to hide anything on a project that is under the GPL.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by o11c » 11 Mar 2013, 04:27

BoomerTheKran wrote:A secret meeting of the self-appointed seems to me like a Bilderberg Group conference. We're not puppets here, we are people. Let us all in on these things. Post the entire meeting log, please. If you want to be truly open and honest, allow anyone that wants to see to follow, even if we are not allowed input, the meeting as it progresses. There should be no reason to hide anything on a project that is under the GPL.
What do you seriously expect us to do? The GHP must on occasion discuss things that really should not be public - for example, things that may impinge on someone's reputation, or that relates. If the appropriate discussions are not held in secret, then we may be unable to raise such points if they are relevant to the discussion active at the time.

And we are NOT in any way self-appointed - every current member of the GHP was promoted by whatever members were active at the time, back to the original founding of the project.
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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by Platyna » 11 Mar 2013, 11:48

Do what he says. I made secret GHP forums to discuss stuff like internal disagreements, suprise quests etc. not to discuss EVERYTHING hidden from players, especially that he just requested to see the log, not to decide. It is TMW - an online game, not Belarus or North Korea, you are trying to make here.

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Re: Democracy? Please, read the entire before voting.

Post by 999999999 » 11 Mar 2013, 17:35

A secret meeting of the self-appointed seems to me like a Bilderberg Group conference.
you saved my day =D

anyways i voted no. will be slowing down things more than be a handy structure.

i wouldn't go as far and hand you a silly idea of the week trophy like others, though i believe democracy was one of mankinds worst mistakes ever made since the root error appeared.


greets
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