Proposal for limited public chat logging
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
Random idea: What if we approached this from an alternate angle? Is there a way to make screenshots verifyable without logging? Technology is pretty wonderful afterall.
For instance the server could start sending hashes of every line in chat along with the line or in a special packet. Mix a secret string in that only the server knows. Add a "screenshot for abuse" thing to the client that writes a logfile along with the screenie. Put the hashes in the logfile along with the text. Make it easy enough for noobs to figure out they need to post both a screenie and a log.
Example:
Pluto says "give me all your items" ..
The server hashes this text this with it's secret: "Pluto: give me all your items | supersecret"
Computes to:56513768de5491ded4ee7ac0fc3b2615 as a md5 hash (Probably want to use a shorter hash like adler)
Client logs: "[21:00] 56513768de5491ded4ee7ac0fc3b2615 Pluto: give me all your items" when screenshot is requested by user
Anyone who knows the secret and can see both the line from chat and the hash value next to it can verify that line of text was actually sent through the server. There's no way to fake this without knowing the secret only the server has!
The user can then simply post their log + screenshot to the forums and the admins/GMs can validate they are accurate by pasting the log into simple web-based tool. The tool could even be public. The beauty of this is it can be done with ALL chat, whispers included, with NO server-side logging.
Again though, I don't know that players abusing eachother is a large enough problem to warrant this type of feature. There are MUCH bigger fish to fry such as the way noobs are trapped in rather frustrating tutorial in a completely unpopulated area for their first several hours of gameplay.
For instance the server could start sending hashes of every line in chat along with the line or in a special packet. Mix a secret string in that only the server knows. Add a "screenshot for abuse" thing to the client that writes a logfile along with the screenie. Put the hashes in the logfile along with the text. Make it easy enough for noobs to figure out they need to post both a screenie and a log.
Example:
Pluto says "give me all your items" ..
The server hashes this text this with it's secret: "Pluto: give me all your items | supersecret"
Computes to:56513768de5491ded4ee7ac0fc3b2615 as a md5 hash (Probably want to use a shorter hash like adler)
Client logs: "[21:00] 56513768de5491ded4ee7ac0fc3b2615 Pluto: give me all your items" when screenshot is requested by user
Anyone who knows the secret and can see both the line from chat and the hash value next to it can verify that line of text was actually sent through the server. There's no way to fake this without knowing the secret only the server has!
The user can then simply post their log + screenshot to the forums and the admins/GMs can validate they are accurate by pasting the log into simple web-based tool. The tool could even be public. The beauty of this is it can be done with ALL chat, whispers included, with NO server-side logging.
Again though, I don't know that players abusing eachother is a large enough problem to warrant this type of feature. There are MUCH bigger fish to fry such as the way noobs are trapped in rather frustrating tutorial in a completely unpopulated area for their first several hours of gameplay.
Head of the TMW Illuminati
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
I am not a fan of this idea.
With all the things that need to get done, this should be dead last on every ones list!
who polices the chat logs? we reads what is written?
and whats the next step, recording the whispers, because when people become aware that we are recording public chat logs they will have to insult in whispers. So that will have to be the next step .......
If you want a better solution make the beginner maps unavailable to someone over level 10. Give them a taste and let them decide. This game has a niche, playing big brother isnt it.
I voted NO.
Prsm
With all the things that need to get done, this should be dead last on every ones list!
who polices the chat logs? we reads what is written?
and whats the next step, recording the whispers, because when people become aware that we are recording public chat logs they will have to insult in whispers. So that will have to be the next step .......
If you want a better solution make the beginner maps unavailable to someone over level 10. Give them a taste and let them decide. This game has a niche, playing big brother isnt it.
I voted NO.
Prsm
ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
I just think, someone told me all that big deal is because someone got abused and we lost many players...
but we can loose players what cant agree with public chat logging too, so its double-edged blade... just thinking.
but we can loose players what cant agree with public chat logging too, so its double-edged blade... just thinking.
Someone once said to me between the lines " You are unwanted here anymore, you are rude, arogant, ignorant, stupid, annoying and worthless person."
And all i can say about it Yes i might be... but that doesnt matter i dont have other feelings different from almighty hate and anger... but in the end its pointless to explain myself.
And all i can say about it Yes i might be... but that doesnt matter i dont have other feelings different from almighty hate and anger... but in the end its pointless to explain myself.
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
I find it hard to believe that someone would quit the game over this. Worse things happen and people keep playing.Avenn wrote:I just think, someone told me all that big deal is because someone got abused and we lost many players...
but we can loose players what cant agree with public chat logging too, so its double-edged blade... just thinking.
Developer: Source of Mana, TMW Classic
SPI Liaison (Donate to The Mana World)
Forum Admin
TMW Team member
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
I think it should be a TMWC discussion and decision. I voted yes. More features to improve the game socially is nice. I like MC's Idea although I'd like for our GM's to use there discretion as /freeze frame/ events can be taken way out of context as we all know. I would like a video logging feature personally and maybe a playback option on the client itself. It should not be difficult to add. If we push this aside and it becomes a problem later than it becomes our fault. If we can do this now than why not?
MC I'm glad you and me are on the same page about the nube quest. For me it is very boring and confusing. The quest needs more direction. The map is a bit huge and this can cause confusion for beginning players when there is not allot of direction. Even the guy that blocks your path should give you some kind of direction. All NPC's should point at your next objective IMO at the beginning of the game. Perhaps we could discuss this more in a new thread? Not sure if one has been made.
MC I'm glad you and me are on the same page about the nube quest. For me it is very boring and confusing. The quest needs more direction. The map is a bit huge and this can cause confusion for beginning players when there is not allot of direction. Even the guy that blocks your path should give you some kind of direction. All NPC's should point at your next objective IMO at the beginning of the game. Perhaps we could discuss this more in a new thread? Not sure if one has been made.
- Chicka-Maria
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Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
I was going to hold off on posting on this but I think I'll voice my opinion on the matter anyway.
I voted "yes" But I have both thoughts on the matter of how it can be a great thing or turn out badly.
Though these are the reasons why I voted yes.
Pros:
1) It would stop people from abusing each other in the general tab
2) People say people would start abusing in whispers...but whispers do not need to be tabbed on manaplus. There is a box in the settings that puts whispers in the general tab. (Though im not sure if this would make a difference it would depend on the recording system/client settings).
3) The logs wouldn't be read by people everyday and not everything would be read. If someone was to screenshot an abusive thing thats the *only* time it would be looked at and not the whole day but that specific time of the incident.
It might be a good idea to make a proposal to have a trial first to see how players adjust to the idea though.
regards,
Chicka
I voted "yes" But I have both thoughts on the matter of how it can be a great thing or turn out badly.
Though these are the reasons why I voted yes.
Pros:
1) It would stop people from abusing each other in the general tab
2) People say people would start abusing in whispers...but whispers do not need to be tabbed on manaplus. There is a box in the settings that puts whispers in the general tab. (Though im not sure if this would make a difference it would depend on the recording system/client settings).
3) The logs wouldn't be read by people everyday and not everything would be read. If someone was to screenshot an abusive thing thats the *only* time it would be looked at and not the whole day but that specific time of the incident.
It might be a good idea to make a proposal to have a trial first to see how players adjust to the idea though.
regards,
Chicka
Yubaba
TMWC Member of The Mana World
Leader of The Mana Empire (TME)
[19:41] Ladysugar: he told me to push a setzer up his rear
www.deviantart.com/comfycheeks - Old Deviant Art
TMWC Member of The Mana World
Leader of The Mana Empire (TME)
[19:41] Ladysugar: he told me to push a setzer up his rear
www.deviantart.com/comfycheeks - Old Deviant Art
William James wrote:Act as If what you do make's a difference, because It does.
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
On side note I can admit I'm not big fan of this idea, because: TMW privacy policy recently has become bad/undefined/careless/ignorant. Some examples:
P.S. last but not least, looking on poll results, those "community members" who are behind of all this buzz can expect at least half of players to be hostile to them. For the mere fact their wellbeing requires to make game a bit closer to police state. And since privacy policy of TMW is already painful topic, such "improvements" are hardly welcome.
- Why I should report to Google when I register account in game? (Recaptcha thing is from google and definitely logs my IP, but I'm not warned data would be send to 3rd party).
- Some 3rd party CDN used. I have no idea what they store about me and what's their privacy policy. I'm not anyhow warned my data will be processed by 3rd party.
- TMW also lacks privacy policy. Nobody cares to explain what you store about me and how it could be used. This could look bad from legal point of view in many jurisdictions, btw.
- Passwords are sent as clear text. So if you login via public wi-fi you can expect your acount to get hacked.
P.S. last but not least, looking on poll results, those "community members" who are behind of all this buzz can expect at least half of players to be hostile to them. For the mere fact their wellbeing requires to make game a bit closer to police state. And since privacy policy of TMW is already painful topic, such "improvements" are hardly welcome.
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
EDIT: I wanted this post to be a PM *facepalm*. Oh the irony I'd do that in this thread.
Last edited by AnonDuck on 16 Dec 2013, 08:31, edited 2 times in total.
Head of the TMW Illuminati
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
The public chat is by definition public, and as it was mentioned upper, everyone can record it. Even if TMW is a rpg, players are responsible of what they say in public, responsible regarding the law, just as they are regarding the game rules. This should be explicitely written in game's privacy policy and terms of service as it is all all public game servers and just as this forum holds our public words for years.
On the opposite, Guild channel are not public ones or left under the responsiblity of guild leaders. Guild bot should not be logged, and the guildspy and partyspy @ commands should be removed if they still exist.
I may add that @wgm should be directed to a kind of GM mailbox along with chat, thus a log, at least for GMs to be aware of the possible issues that occured during they were offline.
I cannot understand why some are against and even why the question is asked, because TMWC doesn't need our authorization.
On the opposite, Guild channel are not public ones or left under the responsiblity of guild leaders. Guild bot should not be logged, and the guildspy and partyspy @ commands should be removed if they still exist.
I may add that @wgm should be directed to a kind of GM mailbox along with chat, thus a log, at least for GMs to be aware of the possible issues that occured during they were offline.
I cannot understand why some are against and even why the question is asked, because TMWC doesn't need our authorization.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
Because if we do these things *without* asking, we get accused of not communicating. Of course, sometimes we get accused of that even when we do communicate ...Nard wrote:I cannot understand why some are against and even why the question is asked, because TMWC doesn't need our authorization.
Over the past 3 months, I have become *painfully* aware of why, historically, development on TMW was done in secret and the players were only presented with an end result.
I had several major tasks ready to start at the beginning of September (magic rewrite, chat channels, ...), but I've hardly gotten anything done.
Former programmer for the TMWA server.
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
I'll ask this question again: privacy of what? What kind of super-top-secret international affairs CIA discussions do you have that make public chat logging such a massive problem? It's a public MMO game chat, if you have things that are truly secret, then you shouldn't be talking about it there in the first place. For everything else, chances are no one will ever read your conversations anyway as the logs will only be for abuse cases.
Developer: Source of Mana, TMW Classic
SPI Liaison (Donate to The Mana World)
Forum Admin
TMW Team member
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
This is something like a lot of people starting another flame war because they weren't asked vs. a few people moaning because they do not understand why they were asked.o11c wrote:Because if we do these things *without* asking, we get accused of not communicating. Of course, sometimes we get accused of that even when we do communicate ...Nard wrote:I cannot understand why some are against and even why the question is asked, because TMWC doesn't need our authorization.
You sure did the right thing o11c.
@Nard: It's not about authorization, it's about asking for other opinions before changing something people would totally dislike.
Somehow like testing new content before releasing it - and this is the best thing they can do.
I already voted "yes" before I read veryape's post because I saw the great benefits for GMs.
But now I can only point at below quote and add a "+1":
veryape wrote: 1. The ones who abuse the rules in public will learn fast to do it with whispers, effectively making the change worthless. Worse still, it would soon become impossible to lure them into talking about/advertising scams in public because they KNOW that what they say can come to the attention of a GM, rather than now when they could suspect a GM of being present while in hiding.
♡ Main characters:
Lv.94 - Cassy - speedarcher on dark path, bunny-wannabe, would like to ride on a Mouboo once...
Lv.95 - Biqcassy - mage on light path, addicted to her Fluffy Hat, love-hates Fallens, really misses Confused Tree...
Lv.70 - Simca. - dreams of becoming a speedarcher on light path, still has a lot to learn...
❀ Personal development overview | priorities | wiki to-do | wiki profile incl. other characters ✼
[20:24:59] <Cassy> debug npc in crypts!
[20:25:02] <Cassy> just a joke...
[20:25:08] <wushin> DONT DO THAT
[20:25:10] <o11c> !slap Cassy
Lv.94 - Cassy - speedarcher on dark path, bunny-wannabe, would like to ride on a Mouboo once...
Lv.95 - Biqcassy - mage on light path, addicted to her Fluffy Hat, love-hates Fallens, really misses Confused Tree...
Lv.70 - Simca. - dreams of becoming a speedarcher on light path, still has a lot to learn...
❀ Personal development overview | priorities | wiki to-do | wiki profile incl. other characters ✼
[20:24:59] <Cassy> debug npc in crypts!
[20:25:02] <Cassy> just a joke...
[20:25:08] <wushin> DONT DO THAT
[20:25:10] <o11c> !slap Cassy
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
I voted yes...because abuse of any kind be it virtual or real is wrong. And having seen abuse perpetuated in TMW and the glaring absence of heroic players diving in to "manners" the culprit I'd say logging is the way to go.
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
Like "public" chat isn't already logged... Maybe you could be honest and reword the vote to read: "Should we use the logs we already collect from public chat to assist in determining player abuse?"
I will abstain as o11c will do as he wishes.
I will abstain as o11c will do as he wishes.
RIP Frost, Big Crunch, Mistakes, mrgrey, and MrWho
Re: Proposal for limited public chat logging
As I see it, you are asking our advice on a minor point. Most of developers communicate quite well (dev/players meetings, monthly reports....) at least with players. The communication problem holds strategic decisions, mostly regarding the server development, rules interpretation... On this point there is an obvious lack of communication not only between players and developers and leading team, but between developers themselves (in which I include admins and GMs).o11c wrote:Because if we do these things *without* asking, we get accused of not communicating. Of course, sometimes we get accused of that even when we do communicate ...Nard wrote:I cannot understand why some are against and even why the question is asked, because TMWC doesn't need our authorization.
I am not going to start a flame war on this topic, my intention is only to point out the inconsistency of the opponents, and also of the rule. Also, debate is always a good thing, even on pointless topics, in that meaning o11c was right to ask for sure.Cassy wrote:This is something like a lot of people starting another flame war because they weren't asked vs. a few people moaning because they do not understand why they were asked.
You sure did the right thing o11c.
@Nard: It's not about authorization, it's about asking for other opinions before changing something people would totally dislike.
Somehow like testing new content before releasing it - and this is the best thing they can do.
- First of all because public chat is already logged, if not by server administration, at least by some chat bots or just by players who enabled chat logging in official client, both never asked for any authorization, and don't need it anyway because the chat is public.
- Secondly because the question doesn't include "what should we be allowed to do with such a log?", and this question is the most important point.
- Third, the server is at the moment a private one, though opened to the public, and host/main administrator(s) can do what they want without telling us. And they already did in the past: example: the guild bot was logged and probably still is, though it should not be.
- Public chat is by definition public, and players should obey the rule whether a GM can read or not, or it is an implicit authorization for players to transgress it (at their own risk).
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.