Dropping or making conditional the English in general rule

[wushin]

considering only about 50-60% (possibly less) of the player population speaks English as a first language, I'd like to open up more languages to be allowed use in-game.
I'm fine with enforcing caveats like if GMs are doing botchecks you must respond in at least pidgin english. IMO, it's destroying the social aspect of the game and further enforcing antiquated colonial imperialism on this world. It stifles social interaction and hinders the development of communities.

Mind you the players pretty much have it figured out when the GMs are on and not so botting is always a problem regardless of langauge barrier.

Abuse can only be perceived if you understand it. Continues to go on in English regardless. Will happen even when GMs aren't online.

Since this is the Internet Whether we want it or not the online game play introduces "trolls" and "mature" behavior. I don't see a problem with that as the majority of everyone that play are considered a an adult or your adult in all the countries.

As I don't want the GMs to be babysitters. They should be settling disputes and catching crooks. Not sitting around Hurnscald monitoring potty mouths and obvious trolls looking to incite them.

[Ginaria]

Actually I don't know, if that is a good or bad idea.
My idea would be to test it one month without the rule and then probably start voting again, so we will see what will happen...

[Okurwieniec]

OMG i voted and it was accepted without 20 post.

Halleluyah o yeah !

I voted for freedom - i hope i will not regret that

[prsm]

there are basically 5 game rules:

"1. Do not abuse other players (insults, swearing, and the like directed to a particular person or persons)";
"2. No bots (including ANY AFK activity or automated following)";
"3. No spamming / flooding (including trade spam)";
"4. No begging";
"5. Speak English on public chat";

Wushin, you have asked to eliminate rule number 5, so that we have 4 rules .... which would be;

"1. Do not abuse other players (insults, swearing, and the like directed to a particular person or persons)";
"2. No bots (including ANY AFK activity or automated following)";
"3. No spamming / flooding (including trade spam)";
"4. No begging";

I would ask this in return , How do I has a GM enforce rules 1,3 and 4 if they are in a language I don't understand.

The main reason why we have rule number 5, is to allow us to enforce the other rules.

That being said, non English speaking players can talk any language out side of town, in guild chat or whispers.

Prsm

[wushin]

1. Players complain when abused, if you don't understand a "ticket" it for another GM to deal with. Respond politely the language is not native and will let another GM look into it.
2. Bots are bots, speaking any language to them doesn't matter. If someone doesn't respond or do so properly, ban them. They can always plead their case on the forums.
3 & 4. Pretty sure it's easy to tell in any language if someone is repeating the same thing over and over and over again.
Plus with begging if it's in a language I don't understand I can't think of and easier way to ignore them.

But mostly these are problems most players should be reporting. If they try reporting in a language we don't understand we can always ask them to use google translate to speak English to us or use it to speak a foreign language "well" enough to converse. We can also "ticket" things to other GMs who might understand the language better.

As this also requires of the players more leniency towards the GMs. As the whole reason I want to change rule #5 is because people want to converse in their native tongue for some that is English and for others that is Spanish, French, German or another language. The players have to understand that if rule #5 goes away it will have certain effects on how GMs enact power:

1) If a GM is unsatisfied with a Response for any of the 4 remaining rules, I'd suggest they err on the side of Banning. As any ban can be petitioned on the forums where better means to prove humanity, understand the situation and lower language barriers exist.

2) It would also be nice if before we rolled this out we could get more players to volunteer to translate. I started a wiki page for Translators a while ago. https://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Translators

3) Players will have to understand that they will be taking a more active role in curtailing Begging & Trade Spam in the languages they speak.

4) More players will have to plead their cases on the forums which from my experience, if people don't show up to court they tend to be guilty.

5) With cases being open on the forums, players are more likely to scold people who are misbehaving and forgive honest mistakes. It also introduces a wider dynamic for translating and correction of translations.

6) I'm certain we will learn how to insult someone in a number of different languages.

7) GMs will have to be petitioned. It's no longer going to be instant report and response, players must realize the turn around on not be able to speak the language and having to translate or "ticket" it to another GM.

Players will become FAR more responsible for squelching Spam in their native language as well. Don't let your language be known as the Spamming Begger language.

I do agree there are logistics to work out with removing rule #5. Even in 30 days if this post succeeds and everyone is convinced to go through with this there will still be logistics to work out. In the end, I'd prefer Our GMs spend more time hosting events and being Ambassadors to the new players and companions of the old players, then always having to get into the middle of things grown adults should be able to handle on their own. I hope the player base understands that IF we make this change, PLAYERS will have to take a more proactive role in governing the world's social dynamic. That GMs will be there only for problems which are greater than the community can handle. As with any Freedom, it comes with responsibility. I would say if We decide to make this change it can be reverted if it just does not work out.

[prsm]

I respectfully disagree with the logic. I like whats tried and true. we do know how it acts now..... Under a changed rule, we don't!

Once again, they can already talk any language they want to, just not in town or public spots.

[veryape]

For me as a GM if we scrap the English in public rule we can't enforce other rules.

I know swedish and english, if someone is insulted in another language i wouldn't have a clue etc. I think it would just become really confusing. Those that are not good at english can nearly always find someone that speaks their language by asking in town etc.

As for now English in public is a rule, and I think it is a good one, what we can open a debate about is when to enforce it, if i spot people sitting somewhere private speaking another language I don't act. If it is in town and in other places that are crowded, like gy etc I do enforce it.

Imo we need to keep rules enforcable, if we ditch the english in public rule the GM role will be nearly impossible to fulfill.

That is my two cents on the issue, I do like the idea about language chat tabs that has been talked about before.

[Chicka-Maria]

I don't think the rule should be dropped, infact I strongly disagree that it should be dropped. The main language of the game is English and not all our GMs are on 24/7 and know all the languages spoken in game. here are a couple reasons why I vote no:

-People can be insulting one another in a different language and the GMs won't know even if its right in front of them because they may not speak the language that is being spoken.

-Scamming people will become easier/more convenient considering you would be able to just speak a different language to non native speakers in town and just scamming them in front of everyone without people even knowing what they are saying. You can sometimes point out scammers now because when they try to rip off someone in town people say something to them. Of course people can just ask someone in whisper and try to get someone to get out of town first but as you can see its more of a pain in the ass rather than Just asking flat out in town since nobody can understand you other than the person you're trying to scam. It will probably be easier to ask for people what their username and password is too in some languages since our GMs don't know every language in existence.

I can put more reasons if need be.

The english in public rule is only used in public places like town, nothing is stopping them from whispering each other or going out of town to speak another language.

regards,
Chicka

[Reid]

On Evol we considered about dropping this rule, though, like Prsm pointed it out, that would be a hell to manage abuse if the abuser uses a different language (and even more if he uses some informal words from this language).
English in public is a good rule, it forces players to meat each other instead of playing on their own group, it straighten the social side of the game and so, it's good for the community.

[o11c]

To me the important questions are:

1. What are the essential concerns of people who would want to speak non-English in public?
2. What are the essential concerns of people who want to forbid English in public?

For 1, I assume the desire is that people be able converse natively. I am not completely sure that this is beneficial - as Reid said, one of the most important parts of an MMORPG is to connect with people *different* than you, and in the world we live in a good control over English is already necessary for everyone - but we shouldn't forbid it *entirely*. However, we already have 4 mechanisms that do support this: going to another map private whispers between 2 individuals, party messages between up to 12 individuals, and guildbot messages with no limit (except that you can only belong to one guild), and a 5th mechanism being planned: to reimagine chat so that people can suscribe to "channels" using GM commands. I expect that the introduction of channels will lead to natural selection of per-language moderators.

For 2, the enforcability of the other rules is a concern that cannot be dismissed, but I am not completely sure that the current rule is the *only* way to ensure it. I can think of two attack vectors:

1. ensuring that botchecks can be done
2. checking that abuse is not happening

For a, it would be quite tenable to hold "if the GM does not receive a reply in English, assume it is a bot". We already assume that all players *can* speak English, which is not *entirely* true but pretty close. However, encouraging people to speak in a non-English language would be a significant regression, since they would not be forced to practice their English during ordinary conversations with other players.

For b, we *could* assume guilt in case of an allegation, but we I think we still have a dedicated subcommunity of people who would abuse that rule to create false allegations. We could create a guilt/challenge system (I do not think Google Translate is useful at all, but it would be possible in a specific case to do a broader search for a specific offense) ... but without some form of chat logging (which, in times past, the community has rejected), there is no way to actually stop all abuse. Also, per the last thread, "if we can't stop all abuse, we shouldn't try to stop any at all". If this seems stupid yet, someone can feel free to start a new thread about it, but let's keep it out of this one.

I respectfully disagree with the logic. I like whats tried and true. we do know how it acts now..... Under a changed rule, we don't!

I must completely disagree with prsm's argument that we should avoid change just because we know the current system's implications. While some degree of caution is essential, flexibility is as well.

Actually I don't know, if that is a good or bad idea.
My idea would be to test it one month without the rule and then probably start voting again, so we will see what will happen...

However, this would be a viable way of figuring out the effects. I would suggest, however, carefully phrasing it such that after the month ends, the rule gets strictly enforced again. It would only be for collecting data so that we can attempt to make a better-informed decision farther in the relatively-far future (and even if we make one, it would still be possible to). Maybe call it "multiculture awareness month" or something?


With all that said, I am currently of the opinion that the rule should stay the same, since the benefits of changing it have not been sold convincingly.

[vquangchung]

I vote No for reasons which veryape and Chicka-Maria told

[nm0i]

There is no reason to vote as spanish is already TMW's second language.

Also rule seems to be interpreted as "Don't speak not english near GM".

And you can freely speak any language (and bot) 16 hours a day without fear of any penalty.

[WildX]

I know many people that learned English through this game and, years ago, I personally improved a lot thanks to it as well. This rule doesn't just make the game better, it does a favour to society. Not to mention how it breaks the barriers between different countries and brings people from all over the world together. Once you drop this rule you'll start seeing players hanging out in groups that speak their own language. So it's a massive "no" from me, it's my favourite rule.

P.S. The problems wushin mentioned, like many other problems that seem to worry everyone so much, can be resolved with the underused and very useful ignore feature.

[veryape]

There is no reason to vote as spanish is already TMW's second language.

Also rule seems to be interpreted as "Don't speak not english near GM".

And you can freely speak any language (and bot) 16 hours a day without fear of any penalty.

Yeah, that is a problem, but we as gm's can't be everywhere all the time, we only do this on our free time, and I know that I for sure like to play the game too, I think the other gm's are like me. So if we spend 4 hours online, maybe 2 is sitting in town, chatting with friends while watching the telly, 1 hour playing and 1 hour doing GM-work (not only doing rounds, but helping out, explaining, pointing people to the wiki etc.).

If you bot you will be caught eventually, if someone sees anyone that they suspect of botting use /wgm and if you don't get any response a GM is probably not online, you can always tip a GM off with a whisper next time you see one.

At least I have a shortlist of characters that i know acts suspicious at times, but as long as they answer within 2 minutes they are not botting by the rules/guidelines.

And yes. Better GM coverage would be great, feel free to nominate GM candidates on the forums.

[Crush]

We have been through this a million times in the past. Let me recapitulate it for you:

1. When you have a large online service like TMW, you have to make sure that certain laws aren't violated on it, or you can be prosecuted yourself.
2. In order to do so, you must monitor and moderate public communication.
3. You can only monitor and moderate what you understand
4. For that reason we are forced to assume, that anything spoken in a language the gamemaster doesn't understand is the worst, most illegal thing imaginable.
5. It's hard enough to have a proper GM coverage in one language, we can't manage to cover dozens of languages.
6. To give the players some security what they can and can't say, we decided to use English as the most common denominator.


tl;dr: The "speak english in public" rule is required to comply with the law.