Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

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Do you think the dark concentration potion should be banned from the PvP tournaments?

Yes

4
31%

No

9
69%
 
Total votes: 13
matto
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Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by matto »

Hello guys,

after my plan to gather a few of these bad boys for the latest tournament (which i manages to miss xDD) failed due to unobtainability of the aforementioned items I made my mind up the way that these should be banned from the tournaments.

Let me now tell you why:

there were other rare/unobtainable items proposed to be banned before and I was not all into it but it's way different with these potions. The most debated items iirc was the Smoking Pipe which adds 10% critical chance. Well, is +10% critical chance going to win you a fight? It might help but it surely won't introduce a guaranteed victory. Personally i would never rely on a pipe to win me a match... there are other numerous factors determining the outcome of the match than +10% critical.

Well, let's now move on to the dark potions cuz those are a different story.

Some numbers to begin with:

With a standard concentration potion and my max dps build i have 2934dps and 138 attack delay.
With the dark ones and the same stats I have 4050dps and 100 attack delay.

I'm sure you've noticed how significant the dps increase is. An advantage as such could (and probably has) totally repress the other circumstances affecting the outcome of a match and simply make you win all the time.

Of course everyone wants to win and everyone wants to do as much as possible to achieve it. But I think an item this over powered and not being available to the vast majority of players could ruin the fun and make it a "I have dark pots" game.

TO SUM IT UP:

You can lose using a smoking pipe... using dark concentration potions, you most likely won't.
Let me know what you think and express you opinion in the poll.

Thank you and have fun playing, winning and losing! :alt-5: :alt-6: :alt-7:

Last edited by matto on 19 Jul 2020, 21:44, edited 1 time in total.
Rubikon
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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by Rubikon »

matto wrote: 19 Jul 2020, 21:31

Hello guys,

after my plan to gather a few of these bad boys for the latest tournament (which i manages to miss xDD) failed due to unobtainability of the aforementioned items I made my mind up the way that these should be banned from the tournaments.

Let me now tell you why:

there were other rare/unobtainable items proposed to be banned before and I was not all into it but it's way different with these potions. The most debated items iirc was the Smoking Pipe which adds 10% critical chance. Well, is +10% critical chance going to win you a fight? It might help but it surely won't introduce a guaranteed victory. Personally i would never rely on a pipe to win me a match... there are other numerous factors determining the outcome of the match than +10% critical.

Well, let's now move on to the dark potions cuz those are a different story.

Some numbers to begin with:

With a standard concentration potion and my max dps build i have 2934dps and 138 attack delay.
With the dark ones and the same stats I have 4050dps and 100 attack delay.

I'm sure you've noticed how significant the dps increase is. An advantage as such could (and probably has) totally repress the other circumstances affecting the outcome of a match and simply make you win all the time.

Of course everyone wants to win and everyone wants to do as much as possible to achieve it. But I think an item this over powered and not being available to the vast majority of players could ruin the fun and make it a "I have dark pots" game.

Let me know what you think and express you opinion in the poll.

Thank you and have fun playing, winning and losing! :alt-5: :alt-6: :alt-7:

Hey Matto.

I want to aswear your question about "Do you think the dark concentration potion should be banned from the PvP tournaments?".
I vote no , just only because there are only few dark concentration potions in the game. And with this , there is no reason those potions to be banned.

matto
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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by matto »

Rubikon wrote: 19 Jul 2020, 21:40
matto wrote: 19 Jul 2020, 21:31

Hello guys,

after my plan to gather a few of these bad boys for the latest tournament (which i manages to miss xDD) failed due to unobtainability of the aforementioned items I made my mind up the way that these should be banned from the tournaments.

Let me now tell you why:

there were other rare/unobtainable items proposed to be banned before and I was not all into it but it's way different with these potions. The most debated items iirc was the Smoking Pipe which adds 10% critical chance. Well, is +10% critical chance going to win you a fight? It might help but it surely won't introduce a guaranteed victory. Personally i would never rely on a pipe to win me a match... there are other numerous factors determining the outcome of the match than +10% critical.

Well, let's now move on to the dark potions cuz those are a different story.

Some numbers to begin with:

With a standard concentration potion and my max dps build i have 2934dps and 138 attack delay.
With the dark ones and the same stats I have 4050dps and 100 attack delay.

I'm sure you've noticed how significant the dps increase is. An advantage as such could (and probably has) totally repress the other circumstances affecting the outcome of a match and simply make you win all the time.

Of course everyone wants to win and everyone wants to do as much as possible to achieve it. But I think an item this over powered and not being available to the vast majority of players could ruin the fun and make it a "I have dark pots" game.

Let me know what you think and express you opinion in the poll.

Thank you and have fun playing, winning and losing! :alt-5: :alt-6: :alt-7:

Hey Matto.

I want to aswear your question about "Do you think the dark concentration potion should be banned from the PvP tournaments?".
I vote no , just only because there are only few dark concentration potions in the game. And with this , there is no reason those potions to be banned.

Well, it does matter. There were instances of ppl using them (and subsequently winning the tournament) before.

You voted No because you think it won't be an issue with such a small amount of them in the game. Tho my question is not if there will be actual issues with the potions, but if it's fair for ppl to use them (considering the significance of the advantage they give) while the others aren't able to get them.

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kytty
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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by kytty »

Only way of knowing if players use the item is because of the poison effect. Note: GMs and Event moderators spawn monsters that could poison players as well. Now, considering #phlex spell is not against the rules, and it makes the opponent get poisoned, I don't see how we would be able to distinguish.

It is a consumable item and knowing there is only a few (rare), players will not be able to restock them.
I believe having rares is a benefit, and I don't want to ban people from using the benefit they still have, at my events.

People get rares for assisting events, and should be able to use it as a benefit on events, imo.

Note: This is only my opinion, TMWT will decide at the end.
Therefore, I vote no!

matto
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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by matto »

kytty wrote: 19 Jul 2020, 21:51

Only way of knowing if players use the item is because of the poison effect. Note: GMs and Event moderators spawn monsters that could poison players as well. Now, considering #phlex spell is not against the rules, and it makes the opponent get poisoned, I don't see how we would be able to distinguish.

It is a consumable item and knowing there is only a few (rare), players will not be able to restock them.
I believe having rares is a benefit, and I don't want to ban people from using the benefit they still have, at my events.

People get rares for assisting events, and should be able to use it as a benefit, at least on my events!

Note: This is only my opinion, TMWT will decide at the end.
Therefore, I vote no!

the point remains the same: if anyone who is not completely rusty uses the dark potions along with the banshee, they simply win (more less) everything (yes we can have 2 ppl using the dark potions fighting each other...). Meaning, if we have 1 banshee using dark potions in the tournament they're going to be the winner (i'd bet my money on that).

the other option would be to remove them completely as it is planned with the savior armor. but i'd prefer if people would simply stop using them in the PvP because it's simply too unfair...

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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by jesusalva »

Keep in mind regular pot lasts 60 seconds, the dark lasts 10 seconds only, cancels other conc. potions and poisons user.

Given the limited stock, using them requires strategy as if the opponent realize its use they can run for 10s and pot will expire.

Keep in mind the increase on ASPD is 25%, the higher DPS is due M+ calculations (which sometimes are wrong).

Also, using them at PvP robs you the chance of using them at Final Doomsday which reward is Dark Talisman (+100 MATK) or Overlord Helmet (+50 DEF), that without considering that fancy item which adds +50 EVADE so enemies miss you.

THESE items are the kind which should be banned.

Trinkets like eg. Golden Apple require strategy and planning to use them so I think it is fair play. I think anything which relies on strategy is fair play, which is not the case of Smoking Pipe as it relies on luck.

PS. I add a quest for Monocle, an adaptation of Saulc's work, so the "OP rare" issue should be saned before next tournament.

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matto
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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by matto »

jesusalva wrote: 19 Jul 2020, 22:42

Keep in mind regular pot lasts 60 seconds, the dark lasts 10 seconds only, cancels other conc. potions and poisons user.

Given the limited stock, using them requires strategy as if the opponent realize its use they can run for 10s and pot will expire.

Keep in mind the increase on ASPD is 25%, the higher DPS is due M+ calculations (which sometimes are wrong).

Also, using them at PvP robs you the chance of using them at Final Doomsday which reward is Dark Talisman (+100 MATK) or Overlord Helmet (+50 DEF), that without considering that fancy item which adds +50 EVADE so enemies miss you.

THESE items are the kind which should be banned.

Trinkets like eg. Golden Apple require strategy and planning to use them so I think it is fair play. I think anything which relies on strategy is fair play, which is not the case of Smoking Pipe as it relies on luck.

PS. I add a quest for Monocle, an adaptation of Saulc's work, so the "OP rare" issue should be saned before next tournament.

well that analysis is in my opinion very inaccurate. the banshee fights (the part when ppl start shooting at each other) often lasts less than a second really so 10 seconds is actually a plenty of time. Yes of course there's a limited stock and i don't know anything about how many potions do ppl usually have. But that doesn't actually matter imo: 1 potion = 1 match won. Personally, i wouldn't mind sacrificing a few of those for a prize such as the underworld mask (just an example). So the strategy part isn't really anything significant imo.

The wiki perhaps has wrong info because i had way lower attack delay and WAY higher dps using the dark one. And yeah it might not be 100% accurate but it's very indicatory to say the least.

PS: please dont make the final boss the way as the coal golem was done because archers wont stand a chance of getting the drop.

bodo
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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by bodo »

Hey matto,

I agree that the dark concentration potion is a very powerful item, if used properly. Also PvP-fights will always be imbalanced unless each player got the same items and stats to work with.

Since that obviously isn't the case the best each of us can do is to use what we've got and try to find another approach. I'm 100% convinced there are various ways to oppose players using dark concentration potions - I wouldn't use them if i didn't know how to deal with others using them.

I personally wouldn't mind having all magic spells allowed in the fights as well (#friyllar, #kaflosh etc.), it just makes it more challenging.

Therefore I voted no.

matto
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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by matto »

bodo wrote: 19 Jul 2020, 23:42

Hey matto,

I agree that the dark concentration potion is a very powerful item, if used properly. Also PvP-fights will always be imbalanced unless each player got the same items and stats to work with.

Since that obviously isn't the case the best each of us can do is to use what we've got and try to find another approach. I'm 100% convinced there are various ways to oppose players using dark concentration potions - I wouldn't use them if i didn't know how to deal with others using them.

I personally wouldn't mind having all magic spells allowed in the fights as well (#friyllar, #kaflosh etc.), it just makes it more challenging.

Therefore I voted no.

well the problem still remains. if you win thank to your stats, it's awesome! anyone can do whatever stats they want and they can even use the same stats as you. that is the point: you have the same oportunity to utilize stats as anyone else does. but that's not the case with the dark potions... like i cannot get any xD.

Well yeah... maybe you can run for 10 seconds and then for another 10 seconds and then eventually win but there's no question about how powerful the potions are. Just because you can maybe someday beat someone using the pots it doesnt mean that the advantage they give is somehow lowered.

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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by jesusalva »

Stat points are different by level.
And no, the final boss is... THE final boss.

No. I'm lying. It is THE FINAL BOSS in uppercase.

If you go against him prepared for a Luvia or for a Coal Golem, you won't last a minute.

Well, no spoilers!
This, however, is not a spoiler: Like other boss fights, death will lead you outside the boss arena.

Be careful or the boss will laugh at you and you will prove Jande right when he said that TMW Adventurers would be no match to Zax De'Kagen :)

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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by WildX »

Unobtainable stat-changing items should not exist in the first place. Once they do exist, it's too difficult to ban them for specific events. It's unfair that these item were not made widely available from the start. Just another way the balance has been ruined; it's not just in the economy.

When development is planned carefully every item made available is a reward for something that anyone can participate in.

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matto
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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by matto »

WildX wrote: 20 Jul 2020, 10:24

Unobtainable stat-changing items should not exist in the first place. Once they do exist, it's too difficult to ban them for specific events. It's unfair that these item were not made widely available from the start. Just another way the balance has been ruined; it's not just in the economy.

When development is planned carefully every item made available is a reward for something that anyone can participate in.

tbh i dont mind items that have a chance to slightly improve your char's performace and it's not impossible to win against someone using them. but i find the dark pots to be just too much xDD.

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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by Ledmitz »

Oh matto... you didn't buy my dark pots on MM for 200K did you? XD. I also wondered about using them, but only 2 of them left. When boxers go in the ring, they wear the same things (within guidelines). I see no reason why special items are really even allowed. I'd even ditch Illia items, but that may be extreme since anyone CAN get them. My issue was with betsanc/asorm from others before a battle. Special items are just as important. Boxers aren't allowed to use steroid either, even if both parties do it. I say no status effects allowed when entering, only certain gear allowed and no potions at all. A true test is when each party goes into the ring as equals. Boxers aren't allowed to wear brass knuckles, for instance. If everyone had to fight naked, we'd be all set and even. No extra bonuses for anyone, just stats and I also think banning spells is silly except for the guardian spawns. Mages have confringo at their disposal too, but it would be tough without ingrav because there aren't enough other spells to compensate so I'm on the fence with kaflosh.

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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by veryape »

If i remember correctly oen could Ontario dark concentration ports by casting à spel tjat is not dokumentet on the wiki or in game. Cant remember the spel so if you are internatet you Will hage to dig thru som code to Find the invitation.

And is the pipe in game? How could i obtain ond? I guss it is the pipe i Madde the graphics for. I would love to somehow get one.

Characters: veryape / Captain Dunce / Elvara / veryapeGM
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Re: Dark concentration potions should be banned from the PvP tournaments

Post by jesusalva »

As for kaflosh: Lightining + Rain = Eletroduction.
Supposed to be obvious, but well, keep it in mind as it is important.


Also wb veryape!
Quick source code grepping.

Dark Concentration Potion ID 745.
All occurrences:

* Item Database Declaration: Power 40, duration 10s. Poison, standard duration, Power 50. (Probably lasts 50s)

* Doomsday Event, Act 5, Logic Core (the part which does not work and I gave up in making it work. Not repeatable)

* Alchemy reagent: Dark Conc Pot + Conc Pot = Diluted Conc. Pot


As for the Smoking Pipe, it is sometimes handed out at GM Events.
I know matto and kytty have one.

It also tells kytty that smoking is bad for her health :alt-=:

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