Are the money sinks working?

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Black Don
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Are the money sinks working?

Post by Black Don » 18 Jul 2008, 05:59

Lets see first there was the stat reset and then the gold plate auctions and now the dyer. First think about how much GP was given to the first 2 sinks and DEV still had to make the target for unlocking the Dyer 500 million GP. Its been 1 week and we have sunk 1/5th of the money. I believe it will only slow down from here as people give a portion for their wealth and say they should not have to give any more.

I did the math the amount the people on the top money list (that means all of them) would have to give to make this sink work. If every person kept only 2 million GP and gave the rest to the dyer he could of been unlocked day 1.

So if someone had 3.568 million GP he could give 1 million he would be good. Someone with 4 million whould give 2 and 5 would give 3 and so on until brianjackson who would have to give up 59 million GP. But there in lies the problem. The 500 million in game is spread across 45 different people some active other not and none are willing to give what they will have to to get this done. They all have there reasons for not doing it and justifications for keeping what they have. This is not the place to discuss these reasons. I don't care why people want to keep their money its a moot point, the money has to go or we can not set up a proper economy.

As DEV likes to tell us the game is pre-alpha. That means we are all game testers. And if we are not willing to give up what we have to, to properly set up the game, then we leave DEV no choice but to take matters in to there own hands. That would mean a wipe. I would suggest since people would scream about a wipe any way that the only fair way to wipe at this point is what Platyna originally suggested. A full wipe of everything.

All items, money, Lvl, experience. Everything goes back to 0. So the people can't complain at the high lvl players have an advantage killing stronger monsters and getting better drops. There won't be any high lvl players. People can't complain about someone hording rares just to sell them later. There would be no rares. No one could have better armor then any one else unless they earned it. Other clans might stand a chance to set up because the HMC would not have its huge financial backing propping it up any more.

Now I know that people would get mad and quit. Heck I have heard people threaten to quit just from bring up my idea to them. But people left when fast attack was fixed. And then more people came and now we have more people on line more often then before the fast attack was fixed. (Correct me if I'm wrong here DEV). So with a game with a balanced economy and new players don't feel over whelmed at the price of things older players are selling. I call it growth pains.

So to sum up what I'm saying. We have to make this sink work. If we sit and wait in 2 years we could unlock the dyer and still have hundreds of millions of GP still in game. Then what was the point of the sinks? That is a slap in the face to the people who have given. So to be fair to them if this sink fails a full wipe is the only way to rebalance everything. I am willing to loose my lvls and my crown (which I earned through content I made for game and has noting to do with te Bugs) and other rares to a full wipe. If your lvl of commitment to the game developing can not match what I'm willing to give up and are more worried about money and items in a video game then I say you should leave. It all goes away with TMWserv any way.

So this is a wake up call to the players here. Are we going to do what we can to remove the money from the game or are we going to make a weak effort and in the end have it all taken away.

As a sub note I want to say something about the inactive players. If the active players do not do their part and make a real effort to sink their money. Then do you think DEV would be willing to remove money from inactive players and give it to dyer. When the active players are not willing give theirs first.

It is something we should all think about.
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by Shaggy » 18 Jul 2008, 08:58

Just to let you know, I donated all my money to the Dyer
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by bigglesworth » 18 Jul 2008, 10:52

Don, I control a character listed in the http://server.themanaworld.org/stats/to ... -level.txt file.

As a player, I've been privileged to discover this game in late October 2007.

I've been playing the same character since December 2007.

I play by 'the rules'.

Five hundred million GP is an absolutely ridiculous amount of money.

The maximum amount money I posses is in the low 2 million GP. I've earned it. The great remainder, I've given away as liquid cash or by buying items for new players.

The items in my inventory, including a few 'rares', I've earned through standard play, quests, events, and have been given to me as gifts. Aren't rare items 'rare' and therefore possibly 'expensive' by definition? No item has a value until someone decides to buy it.

These 'wipe' threads make me furious. Why should I be punished because a few people discovered a bug and abused it? When was the last time these abusers actually logged on and played the game? Why didn't Selim buy an extended warranty for his fragile dyeing machine?

I know this game is extremely pre-alpha and I did accept that fact when I created my account.

I realize that with the release of the 0.1.x server and client, the gameplay will change drastically, which would require totally new data.

That's when the economy will be fixed, if it ever was actually broken.
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by EJlol » 18 Jul 2008, 11:21

I actually promote the wipe. Even when that means I lose all my rare items (most of those items, I earned honest by playing the event instead of just buying it. Although I did buy a few...) Im willing to lose my level 55 character (it took me 2 years (or more?) to get there...). But you should not see this a punishment, because in the end you will lose everything anyway. You should have had fun while getting those items, that is what you earn. No really rare items that only you have, but fun, fun with everybody else that is playing. That is what this game is about. You should be happy if this game is gonna be wiped because you can start over, which mean you can "earn" more fun.
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by Crush » 18 Jul 2008, 12:18

I don't understand why rares and levels have to be wiped when the only problem is that we have too much money in the game.
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by Black Don » 18 Jul 2008, 16:28

bigglesworth wrote:
These 'wipe' threads make me furious. Why should I be punished because a few people discovered a bug and abused it? When was the last time these abusers actually logged on and played the game? Why didn't Selim buy an extended warranty for his fragile dyeing machine?
First this is not a wipe thread. Its to discuss whether the money sinks are going to work.
Second I pose the question if we are unwilling to do what we have to make the game fair for all, who will?
Third if you don't like the wipe idea don't just complain about it give a better idea. I was for the wipe originally the first time around but Crush's money sinks idea changed my mind. But now we have done the sinks and they have had a weak response from the people who hold the bulk of the money. If you have a better idea lets here it or else you leave no other option.
bigglesworth wrote: I realize that with the release of the 0.1.x server and client, the gameplay will change drastically, which would require totally new data.

That's when the economy will be fixed, if it ever was actually broken.
My answer to this is if we procrastinate and leave setting up and adjusting the economy to the TMWserv and we make a mistakes. Then your all for roll backs and wipes on the TMWserv data?
Personally I would like to have it out of the way before then. And so say we will not make any mistakes would be short sighted and leave us doomed to fail.
Crush wrote:I don't understand why rares and levels have to be wiped when the only problem is that we have too much money in the game.
I touched on this a little bit in my original post. It comes down to fairness and equality for everyone. If we take something from everyone no one can complain that some players were given an advantage over other players.
Black Don wrote: All items, money, Lvl, experience. Everything goes back to 0. So the people can't complain at the high lvl players have an advantage killing stronger monsters and getting better drops. There won't be any high lvl players. People can't complain about someone hording rares just to sell them later. There would be no rares. No one could have better armor then any one else unless they earned it.
If we only take money then everyone wow used the fast attack bug to gain high lvls (myself included) get away with a huge advantage. I can kill cave snakes 10 times faster then others and make a killing selling jean shorts or kill mountain snakes for snake skins and make a bunch of chaps.

That is why if players are not going to give to make the sink work and DEV is forced to act. I say take it all away then no one can complain. (but I'm sure they will any way)

So as I see things as a community of players we are going to have to step up or in the end we might have to suck it up.
"Too much of a good thing is an awesome thing, but too much of an awesome thing is, um, really really dumb. And bad." Strong Bad
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by Superkoop » 18 Jul 2008, 19:52

I'm really skeptic if this latest sink will really work, mainly because I doubt we can get the people who need to drop money, to drop money. But IMO it will take about a month to really judge this, by then most of the players who login, will have had the chance to drop the money.

Really, what needs to happen is there should be no players with money over half a million. Since if we have some players with loads of cash, but most have very little, the economy is still basically broken.

Originally I was opposed to a sink, but now if this doesn't work, I think it would be a good idea. And like Don said, just a wipe of the money wouldn't really work. Since the fast attack bug really screwed up the levels.
As for wiping the rares, well, I think it's also a good idea also. Because I believe when we are at the point of having so many rares, that can't be gotten without trading from other players, it makes things less fun for new players. I have almost all of the rares now, and it took me a long time from buying them from other players, and being gifted from other players.
IMO, the rares shouldn't be unobtainable like they are now, the rares should nearly all be obtainable. With very few being ones that normal players can't get. Either through quests, or through shops (costing a lot of money, with a wipe prices could range 100k-1m for the rarest rares) they should all be able to get.
This would still make rares, "rare" since it would take a long time to get make that much money. (assuming a complete wipe)

I would like to see the money sink work, but I don't think it will. :(

(BTW, I dropped all but a couple hundred gp of my money; 800k)
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by Habari » 18 Jul 2008, 22:17

The money sinks cant work because only poor people are giving and are going to give money to the sinks : In my opinion if someone is individualist enough to cheat instead of earning money as the rest he is also individualist enough no to donate money to anyone
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by tarax » 18 Jul 2008, 22:43

I am not a usual poster, but it looks like it is my time.
I have been playing online games and MUDS longer than most of the players have been alive.
The sinks will not work, because the players that cheated and used the glitches to get the money already have the money spread over dozens of accounts or got bored when they got so rich that they could buy anything. One of the players has already bragged that he has 50+ accounts each with less than 2M gp so that it will never show up on the lists. He also said that he was watching the threads and if the decision was made to set the limit to 1M, that he would make an additional 50 accounts and distribute even more. The same is true with the rare items. This person has not and will not drop one single gp into the sinks, because they do not care about the game other than their own greed. While I have only put in a little over 2M gp, I am down to <2K gp, so I think I have given my share. Setting a limit any lower than 1M gp will not be any good either, as you can get to that level in 2 weeks of normal play through the mines at current levels and I had my first 1M after less than a month....

Most all of the above suggestions will not hurt the cheaters, because they will simply start over with their bots and WPE editing and be ahead of the legitimate players in a short time, since they have the experience of time and they code in place to beat the system and the good players are damaged because they have to rebuild.

The only way to combat this situation is the same that WOW and many others have done in the past in order to be fair to those that have put in true time and effort.
1) Limit the number of accounts to something reasonable like 10 per IP address.
2) Enable a system to stop botting and auto-harvesting of the associated drops. I personally like the jail system with progressively increasing time.
3) Put a tax in place that cuts say 5-10% of money and items starting with lowest value, each week or month after a certain length, like 2 weeks for vacations that you are not logged in. This causes people with the storage containers to have to maintain them and gets rid of old accounts no longer used. A simple email to the GMs could put the accounts in a hold state to avoid this.
4) Have a unique identifier for each item that is stored in the database that prevents cloning.
5) Give a group of regular players the ability to watch/report/jail/etc obvious cheater and botters.

All of these ideas have been brought up before and are much better ideas than wiping the system.
Games that start doing wipes, continue to do so because they train the users to expect it and it get to the point that people no longer take the game serious and leave it for more stable systems.

As far as people leaving, I will probably be one because I was under the impression that this was an alpha site with semi-stability until we went to TMW 1.0. If these is a wipe and I must start over, I will probably go to a pay site that I do not have to worry about loosing my virtual sense of accomplishment. Enough ranting, and there are your suggestions.
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by Black Don » 19 Jul 2008, 00:31

tarax wrote:
The only way to combat this situation is the same that WOW and many others have done in the past in order to be fair to those that have put in true time and effort.
1) Limit the number of accounts to something reasonable like 10 per IP address.
2) Enable a system to stop botting and auto-harvesting of the associated drops. I personally like the jail system with progressively increasing time.
3) Put a tax in place that cuts say 5-10% of money and items starting with lowest value, each week or month after a certain length, like 2 weeks for vacations that you are not logged in. This causes people with the storage containers to have to maintain them and gets rid of old accounts no longer used. A simple email to the GMs could put the accounts in a hold state to avoid this.
4) Have a unique identifier for each item that is stored in the database that prevents cloning.
5) Give a group of regular players the ability to watch/report/jail/etc obvious cheater and botters.
I like your ideas Tarax but they do not address the issues of the abnormally large amount of gp. We need to remove the money before setting up an economy. The goal of the sink is the remove of the hoard of gp not to punish people. But if people will not work with a sink how do we get rid of the gp.
So I think your measures would help control cheating better after a wipe but a wipe still needs to happen.
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by Arilious » 19 Jul 2008, 01:18

I feel as though many on the "top money list" don't even play, or are rarely in game.

Secondly, you can expect the clan donation character to give ALL the money, even down to 2Mil seeing as how they provide many things to new players.

Take this into account, and I think everyone can see 500 Million was a ridiculous amount. The economy isn't in a LARGE of a shamble as even I once thought. There are many theories and stuff floating around, and the only thing that's slightly annoying to new people is that it will take them a long time to get "rare" items, which can be won via trivia, or clan events.

;) So really, final point, 500Mil = ridiculous.

P.S. I don't see where you get off telling people who donate Millions but keep more than 2 that they haven't done enough. If they earned their money, they can do what they want. Stop being such a pompous jerk.
Last edited by Arilious on 19 Jul 2008, 01:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by 5t3v3 » 19 Jul 2008, 01:19

Before we jump to conclusions, has anyone actually seen the current top 10-20 chars in money? For all we know some of them might be inactive for a while and get wiped at the next 6-months-inactivity-purge.
Haven't seen the following players in game for a while:
1. bryan jackson (61380695)
2. Gnralpaton (31786410)
3. matt (29696270)
4. MacTygun (26529530)
5. Grim Reaper (20449127)
7. big show (16889950)
9. Trader (14808665)
11. RedRaider (14300090)
12. Buddha (14129730)
13. telos's bank-storage (13608120)
19. Kyle (7248560)
20. Idlanar (7225768)
22. Rasenshuriken (6190156)
23. Silmarys (6174921)
24. XxvotosxX (6155687)
25. Camarox_PL (6008604)
26. addict (5805899)

My suggestion would be to wait another month or so to see how it goes. don't forget that people might even be on holiday and so on. Perhaps making an announcement of this npc during log in could also help!
Last edited by 5t3v3 on 19 Jul 2008, 01:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by Arilious » 19 Jul 2008, 01:19

My point exactly Steve. :D
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by 5t3v3 » 19 Jul 2008, 01:24

Oh btw, in case somebody is wondering about HMC characters, the suggestion to sink HMC money will be brought up in tomorrows meeting. I expect that most probably everyone will agree to sink it all as that benefits the game economy.
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Re: Are the money sinks working?

Post by Matt » 19 Jul 2008, 01:31

I like my moneyz.
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