Content and general development discussion, including maps, quests, and server code from the development team.
#155581 by Tirifto
Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:46 am
Hello all!

I would like to bring up some issues related to the current translation system and find out what are the outlooks for the future. Translations are an important part of the game and I think the upcoming game merge (which brings many big changes) is a great opportunity to revise and improve the current translation system.

Translating in-game data should ideally be fairly a simple task. It should be possible for volunteers to follow clear instructions and participate without the need to do much research on their own.

Currently TMW uses the Transifex platform for translating game content. It seems that the only easy and straightforward way to use Transifex is trough its website. However, in order for the website to work properly, the user has to run non-free software on their computer. This is unacceptable, shouldn't be considered as a viable solution and should not be suggested to the user.

Unfortunately it seems that when a user wants to start translating, they are directed towards this website with no warning. There is a way to use Transifex without non-free software, but in my experience it is significantly more complicated and could confuse and deter potential translators. In any case, I did not find any official instructions from TMW on how to use Transifex freely.

Note: When I say free or non-free, I always talk about freedom, never about price.

I think it would be best if TMW migrated from Transifex onto a different platform which will respect the freedom of its users. I know this has been considered before and may be even planned. Zanata appears to fit the bill. Would it make a fine option for a future platform?
#155582 by WildX
Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:07 pm
You know my opinion on this. Just moving the topic to web development. :P
#155584 by Tirifto
Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:56 pm
WildX wrote:You know my opinion on this. Just moving the topic to web development. :P

Thank you, I wasn't sure which category to pick. As for your opinion, I forgot what it was. Could you maybe briefly explain it here? :?:
#155585 by gumi
Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:39 pm
WildX wrote:You know my opinion on this. Just moving the topic to web development. :P

Actually the correct place is content development, not web development as we're talking about in-game translation, not wiki translation.
#155594 by Reid
Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:28 am
Vasily started to make a graph tool to help us to manage and edit our translations, better wait for him to pop up again. :)
For now transifex is far from enough.
#155655 by Tirifto
Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:22 pm
Reid wrote:Vasily started to make a graph tool to help us to manage and edit our translations, better wait for him to pop up again. :)
For now transifex is far from enough.

I'm not sure what to imagine under a graph tool – could you please elaborate on what that is supposed to do a bit? I suppose Vasily is the one whom to ask for details, but is it something that will replace Transifex, or just supplement it? Because I think that when the game will be ready for translation, it will already be the time to move to a better platform. If the game is ready now, the platform should be changed as soon as circumstances permit it.
#155656 by Reid
Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:21 pm
You can imagine every sentences from a dialogue as nodes inside a big graph, some nodes are connected to other nodes.
These connections represent the continuity between each of these sentences.

Displaying everything that way help us to understand how to translate everything as we would know who is saying what, how and to who, while knowing what could possibly be said previously and after the current node.

Afaik the graph is working, Vasily completed the parsing of our scripts, what could be missing is a way to translate everything easily inside the web UI.
#155814 by Tirifto
Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:50 pm
Reid wrote:You can imagine every sentences from a dialogue as nodes inside a big graph, some nodes are connected to other nodes. […] Afaik the graph is working, Vasily completed the parsing of our scripts, what could be missing is a way to translate everything easily inside the web UI.

This sounds like a very useful tool and it would be great to have it (provided that it's libre, of course). But is this going to replace Transifex as our translation platform, or will it complement Transifex (that is: be used along with Transifex)? If it can't replace Transifex, then it doesn't solve the problem; we absolutely shouldn't ask people to run non-libre software in order to contribute to the game.

If it can replace Transifex, then it would be very wonderful. Just in case, in addition to Zanata, I found Weblate to be an interesting solution. They seem to offer free (or discounted) hosting for libre projects, and there's at least one other game already making use of it. Any thoughts on that?
#155815 by Reid
Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:05 pm
They don't have to install anything in order to contribute, the tool is accessible online and Transifex has a good and serious reputation.
I know some professional translators that use it daily so if anyone is willing to train themself at translation in order to make it their future job, it is the perfect place for them and for us as we would both benefit from it.
#155816 by Tirifto
Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:41 pm
Reid wrote:They don't have to install anything in order to contribute, the tool is accessible online and Transifex has a good and serious reputation.
I know some professional translators that use it daily so if anyone is willing to train themself at translation in order to make it their future job, it is the perfect place for them and for us as we would both benefit from it.

Transifex may be a quality platform with good reputation and interesting for people, but in order to use Transifex's web interface, one has to run non-free JavaScript in their browser – which means they need to run non-libre software. As I wrote earlier, people should not be required to run non-libre software in order to contribute to the game. However well-respected and interesting Transifex may be, we should always think of freedom first, and Transifex seems to fail at respecting freedom.

There are other solutions similar to Transifex which can be used without non-libre software. Before considering whether our chosen platform is used by professionals, we should make sure that it respects the users' freedom, because no matter who ends up contributing to our game – professional or not, aspiring translator or not – they both deserve and need to have their freedom respected. So please let's try to meet that condition.
#155818 by Katerine
Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:41 pm
I'm 100% with Tirifto, what's the point to develop a GPL licensed project while you use or impose a proprietary tools? That's contradictory, please let people also have free tools. As Tirifto pointed out there are alternatives and they are free... Transifex might look appealing but you can't really rely on a service which is non-free, at any given time the terms of service of Transifex might change and this project will eventually need to switch to another tool... That condition would never meet a free tool.
#155819 by Reid
Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:54 am
Katerine wrote:That's contradictory

I won't answer it as a lead dev but more like my personal point of view:
IMO, no it isn't. TMW is a FLOSS project and shall remain so, but:
The project is not a "GPL licensed project", the main point of TMW to be open-sourced is for us to be able to work in group without thinking of back-stabbing copyrights or egos that usually happens in proprietary softwares. Other conveniences from being free and open-source are valuable as well, but keep in mind that the GPL is one of our various tool, nothing else.
To be back on topic, even though we use that proprietary web service to visualize and manage our translations, they are still accessible from our git and they will (hopefully) soon be editable through our own web interface once the support will be complete.
As for current alternatives for Transifex, I didn't look into them and I don't think the time spent on updating our current setup would be beneficial for us in any way.

And I stand still on my previous post, Transifex is a good tool and it is currently free of charge for us. We encourage the use of free softwares if they are suitable for our development, not because they are free.
#155821 by Katerine
Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:23 am
Reid wrote:I won't answer it as a lead dev but more like my personal point of view:
...
The project is not a "GPL licensed project"

Then one of us failed to understand the project because if i look for "The Mana World" in any search engine then i can read the following statement.
Internet wrote:The Mana World (TMW) is a serious effort to create an innovative free and open source MMORPG. TMW uses 2D graphics and aims to create a large and diverse interactive world. It is licensed under the GPL, making sure this game can't ever run away from you.

Therefore if your point of view is shared among the developers of this project then please change the description of your project in every website all over the Internet because it is misleading, moreover if the project is FLOSS it is Free/Libre Open Source Software you must grant the 4 freedoms and by using the translation tool Transifex i have no freedom to "study", "share" and "improve" because i only have the freedom to "use".
Tirifto expressed the concept very well with the sentence below and as i said i am 100% agree with it.
Tirifto wrote:Before considering whether our chosen platform is used by professionals, we should make sure that it respects the users' freedom, because no matter who ends up contributing to our game – professional or not, aspiring translator or not – they both deserve and need to have their freedom respected. So please let's try to meet that condition.

Thanks though for pointing out this very sensitive issue.
#155835 by WildX
Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:06 pm
I am free to compromise my freedom.

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