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#155841 by Tirifto
Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:11 am
Reid wrote:[…] The project is not a "GPL licensed project", the main point of TMW to be open-sourced is for us to be able to work in group without thinking of back-stabbing copyrights or egos that usually happens in proprietary softwares. Other conveniences from being free and open-source are valuable as well, but keep in mind that the GPL is one of our various tool, nothing else.
[…] And I stand still on my previous post, Transifex is a good tool and it is currently free of charge for us. We encourage the use of free softwares if they are suitable for our development, not because they are free.

If I understand you well, you are highlighting the practical advantages of libre software, which matches with the idea of “open source.” But while focusing on that, you miss a much greater advantage that it offers: freedom. Every user has the right to be free and retain power over their computer. It is good to have and care about practical advantages, but one should never forget about – and one should always first ensure – freedom for the users (and contributors). This is not about convenience; this is about ethics and computer user rights. This is a very important point that should never be overlooked, and should always be taken into consideration before anything else.

The Mana World is a freely licensed game; for both software and culture parts of it. I personally started playing and contributing because it's one of the few games that would respect my freedom, not because I felt impressed with the technical side of the game or its development. I think freedom is more important than and should come before practical advantage. I'm here because I love and support libre software, not open source.

Of course other people will have different feelings and motives for being here – I'm not trying to promote my personal motives. I am trying to make the point that freedom is important and we should hold it as a very basic and important value for the project; not merely as icing on the cake. You say that you encourage the usage of free software because it's suitable, not because it's free. Instead of that, please try encouraging the usage of free software because it's suitable and free.

WildX wrote:I am free to compromise my freedom.

It's alright when people are free to compromise their freedom. What's worse is when people are not free not to compromise their freedom.
#155842 by WildX
Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:01 pm
Tirifto wrote:
WildX wrote:I am free to compromise my freedom.

It's alright when people are free to compromise their freedom. What's worse is when people are not free not to compromise their freedom.

Nobody is being forced to contribute.
#155846 by Tirifto
Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:54 am
WildX wrote:Nobody is being forced to contribute.

No, but people are led towards using non-free software, should they wish to contribute translations.

Of course people can do a bazillion of normal things that nobody forces them to do, but the very point is that they should be able to do these things without surrendering their freedom. Setting that as a condition to contribute to a game (that is moreover free itself) is just indecent.
#155847 by bcs86
Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:09 pm
WildX wrote:Nobody is being forced to contribute.

Except omatt
Etherpad wrote:omatt did it in an evening, I'm sure he will love to do it again :> haha so despotic or the whip will cause some pain
#155849 by Pawneeboy
Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:31 pm
This is The Mana World....not The S&M World -,-' :alt-5: :alt-7:
#155853 by WildX
Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:22 pm
Tirifto wrote:
WildX wrote:Nobody is being forced to contribute.

No, but people are led towards using non-free software, should they wish to contribute translations.

Of course people can do a bazillion of normal things that nobody forces them to do, but the very point is that they should be able to do these things without surrendering their freedom. Setting that as a condition to contribute to a game (that is moreover free itself) is just indecent.

There has to be a tradeoff of freedom when avoiding that would result in a damaging blow to the team's productivity. Changing from Transifex to another platform is just not feasible. The amount of work required is too much for it to be worth it. It's less costly to the project to restrict translations to those willing to use the tools provided.
#155855 by bcs86
Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:27 am
The UHH defined the term "Freetard" to describe those such as myself and others who sympathize with the purpose of copyleft.

We conquered the term "Freetard" and throw it at each other when the compiler terminates during a coffee break.

Everyone here knows our "culture" is to avoid proprietary software even if it costs our productivity and popularity.

If The Mana World were not GPL I may as well still be booting MSW to play games.

Most people skip over the EULA, lest their blood and guts boil over into a blind rage.

We go without until the new rules the old and the future rules the past.
Happy Hacking.
#155856 by Katerine
Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:18 am
WildX wrote:
Tirifto wrote:
WildX wrote:Nobody is being forced to contribute.

No, but people are led towards using non-free software, should they wish to contribute translations.

Of course people can do a bazillion of normal things that nobody forces them to do, but the very point is that they should be able to do these things without surrendering their freedom. Setting that as a condition to contribute to a game (that is moreover free itself) is just indecent.

There has to be a tradeoff of freedom when avoiding that would result in a damaging blow to the team's productivity. Changing from Transifex to another platform is just not feasible. The amount of work required is too much for it to be worth it. It's less costly to the project to restrict translations to those willing to use the tools provided.


If so FIX YOUR FREE AS IN FREEDOM BAIT
FreeAsFreedom.png
We believe in free as in freedom.
FreeAsFreedom.png (65.06 KiB) Viewed 1050 times


Also change
Internet wrote:It is licensed under the GPL
ALL OVER THE INTERNET into the more suitable GPL AND CC BY SA.

regards,
a proud FREETARD.
#155858 by WildX
Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:18 am
bcs86 wrote:Everyone here knows our "culture" is to avoid proprietary software even if it costs our productivity and popularity.

I might be biased because I'm a capitalist, but I believe this is the reason why projects like TMW rarely take off. Capitalism is economic science. Maximising productivity is essential to compete with proprietary software. By not doing so you're essentially allowing proprietary software to always be more popular than you becuause they use a system that is proven to be better and you refuse to embrace it.

Katerine wrote:If so FIX YOUR FREE AS IN FREEDOM BAIT

I disagree that it's "bait", but I personally would have no problem changing that. It's no secret that I'm not the biggest fan of free software around here. I'm also not in charge of these things and believe in majority rule within the team, so no it will not be changed. :)
#155860 by Katerine
Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:26 pm
WildX wrote:
Katerine wrote:If so FIX YOUR FREE AS IN FREEDOM BAIT

I disagree that it's "bait", but I personally would have no problem changing that. It's no secret that I'm not the biggest fan of free software around here. I'm also not in charge of these things and believe in majority rule within the team, so no it will not be changed. :)

So we can read from this topic is:
- Nobody is in charge of anything in this project, because a Lead Developer and Game Master have spoken but none of them can take a decision
-Yours project uses open source licenses and software most for convenience and not freedom even if you state in your own legal notes that you believe in free as in freedom
-A Lead Developer stated as not Lead Developer that he do not care about the freedom of your contributors only care about building the project in ways that suits best
-A Game Master, Forum Moderator just stated that do not believe in free software but that the sentence We believe in free as in freedom. must remain because he has no powers to change that.


From all that you still wonder why your The Mana World is dead and you need a fusion to hope to keep it alive? well those last posts cleared all dubts.

Farewell.
#155861 by omatt
Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:55 pm
All this, just because not enough good plateform for our translation... Do a good alternative exist ?
And, as i can read, Transifex is temporary, waiting for a better solution (like Reid said about Vasily work).

I think if someone want contribute with translation, without use [a whatever program who fuq freedom], I recommand to wait and see (or create the better solution himself).

Please, people be nice, save Cindy and kill Krukan <3
#155862 by bcs86
Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:38 pm
I might be biased because I'm a capitalist, but I believe this is the reason why projects like TMW rarely take off. Capitalism is economic science. Maximising productivity is essential to compete with proprietary software. By not doing so you're essentially allowing proprietary software to always be more popular than you becuause they use a system that is proven to be better and you refuse to embrace it.


TMW does not need to be popular or to "take off" it dies in one place and it revived in another. One maintainer changes occupations, another maintainer is able to start a version without asking anyone.

The economic science of Capitalism is self-enrichment. "Productivity" is Profitability
and profits are essentially unpaid wages. Efficiency means machines. Machines do not go shopping, they can not buy things.

The drive for profit necessitates artificial scarcity to avoid producing the needed amount of goods. Economists call it "overcapacity", Marxist call it "over-production", common sense calls it an absurdity, because in the past struggled to avoid famine!
Here we are in the present embracing this science of self-enrichment that must maintain a famine.

TMW and related projects are just a tiny glimpse of the productive forces rebelling against the narrow conditions of appropriation set by the propertied class that holds power over our destiny.

We shoot ourselves in the foot trying to do these projects within the laws of the capitalist system. The lesson to be learned is this system is long past its expiration date.
#155863 by Tirifto
Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:49 pm
WildX wrote:[…] I might be biased because I'm a capitalist, but I believe this is the reason why projects like TMW rarely take off. Capitalism is economic science. Maximising productivity is essential to compete with proprietary software. By not doing so you're essentially allowing proprietary software to always be more popular than you becuause they use a system that is proven to be better and you refuse to embrace it. […]

Ethics and popularity or convenience often lead to different paths. I suppose you're going with the latter here. If you popularize libre software by popularizing non-libre software; you're no longer just popularizing libre software. You're now popularizing both. Using ill means for good ends brings ill ends of its own. If a libre projects that values freedom sacrifices the freedom in order to be more successful and compete with non-libre projects, then it becomes less of a libre project that values freedom and more like the projects it has set out to compete with.

Perhaps the ideals of freedom do not align with those of the project. If they don't, then this project is indeed not a champion of freedom. But were a champion of freedom to choose convenience over freedom, they can no longer be called “a champion of freedom.” If a game must forego freedom to become popular, that would explain why you don't see free games take off. But I – personally – believe that a champion of freedom can take off, even if it's with much difficulty; and even if it didn't, it has my great respect for pursuing that which is right over that which is merely convenient or profitable.

Katerine wrote:[…] So we can read from this topic is:
- Nobody is in charge of anything in this project, because a Lead Developer and Game Master have spoken but none of them can take a decision
-Yours project uses open source licenses and software most for convenience and not freedom even if you state in your own legal notes that you believe in free as in freedom
-A Lead Developer stated as not Lead Developer that he do not care about the freedom of your contributors only care about building the project in ways that suits best
-A Game Master, Forum Moderator just stated that do not believe in free software but that the sentence We believe in free as in freedom. must remain because he has no powers to change that. […]

As I understand it, Reid is the lead developer and most of the decisions go through her. If it's indeed so, then others will probably first await her approval of that. (I'm not sure how the power structure works in the project, nor if it maximizes productivity.) Should she issue one, I hope that the project will agree on a common vision that will reflect the true intentions of the development team. From what I've read here, it doesn't appear to target freedom, so that much should be made clear, or at least not have contradicting information.

Note that even if that comes true, I still encourage the project to consider freedom as a core value of greatest importance – as some others here (all of whom have my thanks) appear to do, fortunately.

omatt wrote:All this, just because not enough good plateform for our translation... Do a good alternative exist ?
And, as i can read, Transifex is temporary, waiting for a better solution (like Reid said about Vasily work). […]

I have mentioned Zanata and Weblate. {4144} said that he did not look into them yet; I'm not sure if others have. I have used Weblate before and I think it's a good program. I have no experience with Zanata, but it seems nice, too. Considering their free licensing, they're clearly much better solutions to me, although the TMW Team seems to have different priorities. I just hope that Vasily's software will become usable soon under a free license, so that translators can have their freedom respected, even if it's “by accident.”
#155870 by Reid
Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:57 pm
That is drifting slowly into off-topic...
I believe I was clear enough on my last post that I stated my own opinion on that matter, if you want a dev answer to that topic it is pretty simple:
You want us to use a free alternative to Transifex? Alright, set it all up and do a MR. If we don't loose any feature from Transifex we will consider the migration or else we will stay with Transifex as it actually suits our needs.
Transifex is a tool and it is in no way part of our project. I believe TMW legacy used to use non-free softwares in the past as well, maybe I am wrong but I don't believe that GitHub is free as in freedom.

The project and all of what we produce as contributors is free and open source, we encourage the use of free softwares, although, we won't limit our workflow for that reason, our aim is to make a game, and not just a free as in freedom game. That aim was forgotten for years, but it is now the main goal of the mana world: revolt.

One last thing, the project is under a lot of work since some months, we didn't have the time to update most of our web and social medias about most of our changes. So some information related to TMW might be related to the Legacy TMW, not the one that is currently being worked on, TMW: rEvol. If you want more information related to the revolt version of TMW, most of them can be found on evolonline's wiki and site. Bear with us instead of attacking us!

I will lock that discussion from now as it is clearly not related to content development anymore.
#155874 by WildX
Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:40 pm
Just a footnote to highlight what I think is at the core of all this:
Reid wrote:we won't limit our workflow for that reason


(Also before someone invokes freedom of speech you're all welcome to start discussions about free software in player talk.)

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