TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

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Jenalya
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TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by Jenalya »

The next bigger content release will introduce a new skill called Raging.
It increases the chance to do critical hits at the cost of some of the defense based on vit (armor defense isn't touched) for a range smaller than 3, so it's a warrior skill. With the help of derpella and other testers I figured out a formula for it to make it strong enough to be attractive.

It's available on the testserver either on the debug NPC or the quest series on 033-1, please try it out and comment here.
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by baedamichi »

Hi,

I just tested the raging skill with a char having exactly the same stats as my main char on the main server (so I'm able to compare "what's new" with hours of gaming experience). The stats are:

33 31 64=61+3 1 56 63

Equipment: Rock Knife, Steel Shield, Jeans Chaps, Fur Boots, Leather Gloves, Warlord Plate and Helmet.

Concerning the defense bit, I must say I couldn't feel any differene at all. I tested in the graveyard (Zombies, Skeletons, Lady Skeletons) and in the Hurnscald Mines (Red Slimes, Spiders, Black Scorpions), all monsters seemed to do exactly the same damage as without the raging skill (usually 1 HP per hit).

About the attack bonus, I definitely noted a difference, crits occur more often.

So, my comment on the new skill: It depends on your intentions whether it works fine or needs improvement.

If you just wanted to give warriors a bit of a bonus with that skill, it's great. I can kill monsters faster now, and I suppose when taking part in a raid in the graveyard I'll definitely get more exp.

If you wanted to give warriors a (realistic) chance of collecting the items required for the high-level quests (especially love triangle) without either depending on the mercy of the 0,5% archers and mages in the game who share items (be it via party system or by simply not picking all of them up) with warriors in a graveyard raid or simply doing the quests by killing red slimes until being able buy the required items, the new skill needs to be adjusted, crits would have to occur way more often (maybe at every third hit when luck is at 66), or warriors will never have the chance of being the one entitled to pick up the item, an archer, even approximately 15 levels lower than a warrior, will still do more damage per second (and a mage even more, but I guess that's another issue not relevant here but to be discussed elsewhere...).

Anyway, in sum, whatever it is you had in mind, the skill is definitely attractive and I will give up my speed skill level 9 for it once it's released.

Thanks for all the work you've put, put and will put into this game!

Regards,

Baeda
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Big Crunch
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by Big Crunch »

found a problem.
see this screenie, specifically the defense number
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Jenalya
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by Jenalya »

baedamichi wrote: If you just wanted to give warriors a bit of a bonus with that skill, it's great. I can kill monsters faster now, and I suppose when taking part in a raid in the graveyard I'll definitely get more exp.
That's a good description of what this skill is intended to do, since I want to avoid something too powerful.
Regarding the comparing to other classes, after raging is released, I plan to watch the effects of it regarding balance and game-play a while and then start tweaking the other skills. Those were released without so much testing and are based on something an inactive developer did some while ago. In retrospect I assume the formulas for the skills currently in game were rather work in progress than finished and their release had a huger effect on the game balance than originally intended.
I'm going to gradually work on this, involving more play-testing and feedback.
Big Crunch wrote:found a problem.
see this screenie, specifically the defense number
Thanks for catching this, I did an error in reasoning when adjusting the formula for the defense, which made the number go very high for a low skill power.

I changed the formula for the defense to fix this and updated the testserver, please test again. :)
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Alige
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by Alige »

I tested the Raging Skill level 9 on several monsters, being level 91. I still think that the percentage of critical hits is still not significant enough. I'm pretty sure that people would still prefer the speed skill than the raging skill, when being a warrior. My personal feeling about that new skill is that it isn't so much a change for the character. We should really make its defense decrease and its critical percentage increase a lot. For now, the difference between a character without the raging skill and a character focused on it with a level 9 is not big enough. Note that the level 9 is best level ever for a skill thus it needs to be very powerful.
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by Big Crunch »

I'm good with the amount of damage done to me. Without using healing, i cannot kill a fallen or zombie solo. I would recommend keeping the current def level but increase the crit% again. With 100 str and 100 luck, i get a 68% crit chance. I would recommend making the max crit% be somewhere around 80%-85%. Getting it that high is impractical, but i think that should get the crit% to around 70% using graveyard standard stats, ie, 90 str and 66 luck, which i think should be the goal of the skill.
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by TeZeR.D »

Ali-G wrote:I tested the Raging Skill level 9 on several monsters, being level 91. I still think that the percentage of critical hits is still not significant enough. I'm pretty sure that people would still prefer the speed skill than the raging skill, when being a warrior. My personal feeling about that new skill is that it isn't so much a change for the character. We should really make its defense decrease and its critical percentage increase a lot. For now, the difference between a character without the raging skill and a character focused on it with a level 9 is not big enough. Note that the level 9 is best level ever for a skill thus it needs to be very powerful.
I strongly disagree,
I find that out of 3 shots I do, I get 2 crits, this is with 66 Luck.
As ofc raging skill is for warriors, mostly for GY, so I used my GY stats, and this skill. It worked really well.
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by TeZeR.D »

Really I didnt really test the rest ( lvl 1 raging to lvl 8 ). So I have NO real idea. If its powerful enough, 2-3 is good enough for me? or should it be 3-3?That would make it unbalanced I think.
BTW I really like this skill. GJ Jenalya!!
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by baedamichi »

Hi there,

I tested again, now with the "defense bug" (which I didn't even notice during my first test, shame on me :mrgreen: ) fixed thanks to Ali-G and Jenalya.

I must say that now I agree with the opinion that the number of crits should be increased a bit, I tested with the same stats as mentioned in my first post, my defense decreased by 9, the crit percentage increased by 7, to 35%.
I don't exactly know what else influences this "percentage" (as my maths tells me that a percentage of 35% should mean that about every third hit should be a critical, and I definitely don't get that with my stats, maybe every 5th to 8th hit on a Skeleton is a crit), probably strength and some random factor also matter.

I also don't think that 90 strength and 66 luck are the "typical" graveyard stats for a warrior per se, I would like to point out here that this skill is also (if not mainly) supposed to help medium level characters, and seeing that warriors have to raise 4 of 5 stats in order to be halfway successful in this game, I think it's higly unlikely that a medium char would have 90 strength as a part of his/her "graveyard standard stats".

With the now working defense decrease, I suddenly can't solo three Skeletons at the same time without healing, and this is quite something big to give up for a warrior.

In sum, I would propose to leave the defense malus as is, but make the crit bonus more attractive.
If possible, I would suggest to calculate the crit probability increase this skill adds to what you already have independently of strength, if I got the two out of three shots mentioned by TeZeR.D at 65 luck and 33 strength, I would consider the skill more than attractive. I would even be content (content enough to use this skill and give up defense and speed for it) if only every third hit was a critical at the stats I've tested with.

Something off topic (people who hate these things: Please don't read :roll: ): I'm new to testing. I wanted to contribute something to the game, and seeing I'm a poor artist and the last programming I did was 15 years ago (Turbo Pascal :P ), all I can do is help testing. I'm having trouble with the gm commands "@summon" and "@spawn" from the wiki page, the server just tells me those are unknown commands. I did the @gm gm thing, was told it was successful, and the other commands (@warp, @item) work fine for me. The @spawn would be quite useful for testing purposes I guess, so what am I doing wrong here?

Regards,

Baeda
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Big Crunch
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by Big Crunch »

Skills are for all ranges of levels. They should be valid and useful from.the minimum level acquired?to lvl 99
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by baedamichi »

Big Crunch wrote:Skills are for all ranges of levels. They should be valid and useful from.the minimum level acquired?to lvl 99
Thanks for summarizing my last but last paragraph. ;)
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by Jenalya »

Ok, it seems the crit chance might still be a bit too low, but I'd like to get a little more data before adjusting again.
I think it'd be interesting to compare using raging or speed with the same level, since as far as I know most warriors use speed at the moment.
baedamichi wrote: I must say that now I agree with the opinion that the number of crits should be increased a bit, I tested with the same stats as mentioned in my first post, my defense decreased by 9, the crit percentage increased by 7, to 35%.
I don't exactly know what else influences this "percentage" (as my maths tells me that a percentage of 35% should mean that about every third hit should be a critical, and I definitely don't get that with my stats, maybe every 5th to 8th hit on a Skeleton is a crit), probably strength and some random factor also matter.
I'm not sure, but I think the monsters luck value is also important for the chance to do a crit, which can't be covered in the value displayed by the client.
baedamichi wrote: With the now working defense decrease, I suddenly can't solo three Skeletons at the same time without healing, and this is quite something big to give up for a warrior.
The skill is meant as offensive skill that means increasing the amount of healing that is needed is part of it. One goal of this is to encourage playing in a team with other players. If timezones allows it, it'd be good to also test together with other persons, eventually also using different playstyles/classes working together.
baedamichi wrote: Something off topic (people who hate these things: Please don't read :roll: ): I'm new to testing. I wanted to contribute something to the game, and seeing I'm a poor artist and the last programming I did was 15 years ago (Turbo Pascal :P ), all I can do is help testing. I'm having trouble with the gm commands "@summon" and "@spawn" from the wiki page, the server just tells me those are unknown commands. I did the @gm gm thing, was told it was successful, and the other commands (@warp, @item) work fine for me. The @spawn would be quite useful for testing purposes I guess, so what am I doing wrong here?
It is often undereastimated how important and time consuming testing is, so this is a very good way to contribute something. :)
Regarding the gm commands, because of some people abusing them we had to change the access rights recently to avoid people being able to disturb other people's testing. @spawn is one of the commands that was removed from the list of commands that is available with the level you get when doing @gm gm.
People who do serious testing can get higher access level and you were just given gm level 50 on the testserver to have access to that command.
We're planning to add an information telling which commands are accessible at which gm level to the wiki page about the testserver.
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by baedamichi »

Those are the first two screenshots (description see post after o11c's).
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by o11c »

baedamichi wrote:defense decreased by 9, the crit percentage increased by 7, to 35%.
I don't exactly know what else influences this "percentage" (as my maths tells me that a percentage of 35% should mean that about every third hit should be a critical, and I definitely don't get that with my stats, maybe every 5th to 8th hit on a Skeleton is a crit), probably strength and some random factor also matter.
That would be your crit change against a baseline monster; against a monster with high luck it is significantly less.
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Re: TEST: Warrior Skill Raging

Post by baedamichi »

Hi folks,

I did some more thinking on the raging skill, and to my mind, whether this skill is attractive to warriors, in other words, whether people will be willing to give up defense and use raging once it's released depends largely on one question: Can a warrior do more damage (and thus gain more experience) with speed skill or with raging skill?

I tried to get away from the "I was testing and I FELT that...", so I did a little experiment.

I killed Skeletons continously for exactly 15 minutes, first with raging focused, then with speed skill. I used Mana Plus to record the statistics, screenshots are attached.

For my first try, I was using a lvl 75 warrior as described in my first post in this thread. The two screenshots in the post above o11c's show the results. The first one (ManaPlus_Screenshot_3.png) was with raging focused, the second one (ManaPlus_Screenshot_2.png) with speed skill (please note that in ManaPlus_Screenshot_2.png there's a little mistake, the kills should actually be 14 as I accidentally killed a bat before I set them to ignore, not that those 34xp would alter the results dramatically).

For my second try, I used a lvl 90 warrior (same equipment as in first try) with stats I deemed sensible for such a level (for exact values confer screenshot). Again, the first pic is with raging focused (ManaPlus_Screenshot_5.jpg), the second one (ManaPlus_Screenshot_4.png) with speed (this time no bats involved :lol: ).

Hopefully, these numbers can help developers a bit with their decision on whether and how the skill should be altered.

My personal opinion after having done this experiment: The offensive bit of the skill should be raised, the defensive (malus) part of it can stay as it is (as the lvl 90 warrior I didn't need to heal facing two skeletons at a time, as the lvl 75 warrior I felt the difference, I needed way more water with raging focused, with speed focused I only needed it when I was unlucky and received two crits within a short period of time; but this would be acceptable if the offensive bonus was high enough).
If, for example, as the lvl 75 warrior, I could kill 17 instead of just 14 Skeletons in 15 minutes, this would be enough for me to accept giving up a bit of defense and speed.

Next thing I wanna try is finding a partner who plays a speed archer to repeat the same experiment in a team to see what the difference in exp gain is when hunting together. My maths tells me there shouldn't be a big difference between that and playing solo, as the exp gain in a team also largely depends on the damage dealt, but who knows, maths was never one of my strengths...

Anyway, almost three in the morning here, I'm signing off to bed. :wink:
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