Languages

[Speiros02]

Just a question. As I don't speak any other languages, I wondered if I opened up a new user name in another language, is it only the message at the beginning that is in the other language? For instance, say I speak French, do the NPC's speak in French to the player? So I guess my actual question is, when a person speaks another language, is the gameplay able to be accessed by other language users? If not, I have an idea.

I noticed the extensive work on the wiki, and the translations, and that's awesome. So I'm thinking (after seeing a newbie at the beginning level) that maybe he's lost because the messages aren't in his language. I know it's an English server, and I don't have a problem, as they should still be able to respond in English when talking in public, but at the same time, I wonder if some direction from AT LEAST the preliminary NPC's should be multilingual.
Even if it's just a link to Google Translate for instance.

Maybe a choice of language on signin, and specific places are in their language.

[Crush]

No, the game content is not localized. All NPCs only have English text except for the first one who tells the player the game rules.

[Nard]

Some player play TMW even with the language barrier. This is why a big effort (unfortunately unfinished) was made by Ali-G and translators to translate the wiki. I hope whe can include in wiki translations of the most important NPC dialogs so these users can enjoy the stories and humour wich is not accessible to them now.

[Jenalya]

As far as I know the idea to translate all the NPC scripts was discussed several times, but always ended with the conclusion that'd be too much work and would make maintenance much harder.
The idea to translate only the tutorial NPCs is interesting, since I suppose the first few minutes and hours decide wether a player will continue to play the game. But I wonder, won't it create false expectations if you can start to play the game in your language, and then suddenly everything is in English?

[Nard]

The good is that it would make TMW much more attractive, the bad is that it would require a lot more work, a pool of reliable translators and an adequate tool (transifex?) I am not sure about maintenance, because once debugged and released, quest rarely need an update. To my player experience, new players rarely needed help for the tutorial parts, because google translate fulfills their needs, difficulties begin later

[Crush]

What would it mean for content development when all content would be localized? It would mean that an update can not be released until it has been translated into all supported languages.

That means the TMW team will need reliable translators for all languages on hand. Each translation would also have to be QA-checked separately, because a small translation error can have big consequences when it screws up some essential quest information. This means a second native speaker for each language needs to be around. TMW was always based on volunteer work, which is never reliable. We always had a very high developer rotation. Even when we find translators and testers for all languages now, there is no guarantee that they will be around in a year, a month or even next week. When the TMW team can't find someone who is able to write good German, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Russian or whatever, they will either have to put updates on hold or release them untranslated.

The first option will mean that everyone will suffer of update delays of several months, even the English speaking players who don't need a localization. This would not only frustrate the players, but also the content developers who can't see their work ingame. The latter will mean that players will be confronted with a mix of English and their native language. In my experience, switching back and forth between two languages is much more annoying than having everything in the language you understand less.

tl;dr: TMW lacks the manpower for maintaining translations. The costs outweigh the benefits.

[o11c]

Also, while theoretically possible, it's not technically feasible to do translation in scripts right now. (and given the other arguments, I probably won't work on it)

[Doofus]

But I wonder, won't it create false expectations if you can start to play the game in your language, and then suddenly everything is in English?

The good is that it would make TMW much more attractive, the bad is that it would require a lot more work, a pool of reliable translators and an adequate tool (transifex?)

Complete localisation is an impossibility as no tool has the capability of providing run-time translations of requests from GMs when checking against botting. This is bound to catch some players who are trying to get by on limited English. Hopefully there is some form of advocacy for those who don't understand what they are asked ( -- and why they are asked -- the need for two characters to demonstrate independently AND simultaneously movement doesn't seem to be a necessary criterion for the ruleset). I must admit even as a native English speaker the rules are so couched in geek speak that I had to look up a lot of the terminology (as I imagine would be the case for anyone new to mmorpging). Localisation is only one aspect of providing clear communication.

[Nard]

Complete localisation is an impossibility as no tool has the capability of providing run-time translations of requests from GMs when checking against botting. This is bound to catch some players who are trying to get by on limited English. Hopefully there is some form of advocacy for those who don't understand what they are asked .

Localisation is possible while English can stay the official language. It "just" needs extra work as Crush pointed it out. Communication between GMs and non-english-speaking players have already been experienced; they were solved because GM got help from a player who could translate. Problems could arise if the translator was not reliable though.

I must admit even as a native English speaker the rules are so couched in geek speak that I had to look up a lot of the terminology (as I imagine would be the case for anyone new to mmorpging). Localisation is only one aspect of providing clear communication.

I agree with that. Rules are actually written in different terms in game and on forum, and have been updated especially with the "no follow" rule and various ways to understand it.

[Jenalya]

4144 suggested to me that we could translate the client-data, he allowed me to quote his pm here:

Hi,

For long time manaplus support client data translation.
If you want, i can create translation project on transifex for tmw client data.

After will be need add translation in special directory in client data and add some special tags to xml files.
This tags need to mark what data and how should be translated.

I not sure what all current manaplus translators want/can do this translation, because this i will create another translation project and some one can translate it.

What you think about this?

Translating the client-data would be much less work than the NPC scripts (mainly the item names and text displayed when hover above them with the mouse), but the issues Crush already mentioned would still apply (the need for reliable translators, problem that missing translation could block a release,... )
Also, it might be confusing if you have translated item names in your client-data, but in the NPC dialogues the items are mentioned with their English names.
One technical thing, 4144, the tags we'd need to add wouldn't break compatibility with mana, would it?

So, I'd like to ask all of you:
Do you think translated client-data would be helpful and would it be worth the effort?
If yes:
What languages do you think we could reliably cover?
Would it be problematic if we do releases with missing translations? (the missing things would be displayed in English then, I suppose)

[4144]

One technical thing, 4144, the tags we'd need to add wouldn't break compatibility with mana, would it?

Mana will works with this tags fine. This tags need only for translation tool.
For example here emotes xml for ManaPlus https://www.gitorious.org/manaplus/mana ... emotes.xml (addition tags its:rules)

[Kazenawa]

I personnally think that, as translating everything would provide a lot of work (and apparently it's even not really possible, or hard to do), and as nowadays everyone needs to know to speak english more or less, let it as it currently is.

I know that what i'm saying is quite unfair for people who haven't learnt a bit of english in their life, but i'm sure these persons would really prefer to see new content than having the game translated in their own language. As it has already been said, they can check the wiki. This way, if you understand nothing, the game probably lost it's particular taste, but you can play anyway.
For persons who don't speak english a lot, i see only one advatage... they'll increase their english understanding, and writing ability. Ok, the beginning would be difficult for them too, but that's the same for nearly than every new thing you try to do.

I've played some full japanese rpgs and i didn't know any word in these languages, i enjoyed the games anyway and i still think they're great games anyway. Moreover, i learnt a lot in japanese with them even if, i know, it's really different when you need to have some social relations like in mmorpgs...


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[Edit]

So, I'd like to ask all of you:
Do you think translated client-data would be helpful and would it be worth the effort?
If yes:
What languages do you think we could reliably cover?
Would it be problematic if we do releases with missing translations? (the missing things would be displayed in English then, I suppose)

I don't think translated client data would be helpful compared to the effort it would require.

About the covered languages, why would you cover some languages and not other ones ? What i'm highlighting is that all the players will never be satisfied of it because you'll never be able to translate the game in each language players speak.
It's different for the wiki, because some people probably can't develop for the game because they haven't the knowledge but are able to do translations. And as a single person can with difficulty know all existing languages, wiki pages are translated only on languages spoken by the translator. That's also unfair, but i don't think you're obliged to do a documentation in every language, as for the game.

Also, about missing translations...
Imagine you're someone who don't know how to speak and don't understand a word of english... With the help of a translated wiki, you're able to play the game anyway, even if you'll of course have difficulties. Though, reading english every time will start to make you understand it more and more. If you add some parts in english (a language completely not understandable by the concerned player), and some parts in his native language, (s)he'll everytime try to find things in his language and not make the effort to try to understand english... This way, to my mind, (s)he'll loose more time than taking the time to understand english, and (s)he won't have learnt anything, and learning english is probably useful for everyone.
Besides, a very coherent environment is really more understandable (even in an unknown language), than a big mess of languages, even if some of these languages are well understood by the concerned person.

[Nard]

Translating the client-data would be much less work than the NPC scripts (mainly the item names and text displayed when hover above them with the mouse), but the issues Crush already mentioned would still apply (the need for reliable translators, problem that missing translation could block a release,... )
Also, it might be confusing if you have translated item names in your client-data, but in the NPC dialogues the items are mentioned with their English names.
One technical thing, 4144, the tags we'd need to add wouldn't break compatibility with mana, would it?

So, I'd like to ask all of you:
Do you think translated client-data would be helpful and would it be worth the effort?
If yes:
What languages do you think we could reliably cover?
Would it be problematic if we do releases with missing translations? (the missing things would be displayed in English then, I suppose)

The only solution we can imagine at this moment if it is chosen to translate, is that players have to admit partial translation for a (big) while, even if it is not very satisfactory. The project also cannot afford yet that releases to be blocked because all translations are not finished. Most actual players can more or less deal with english anyway. if this choice is made, it is with the intention to bring more players to TMW, especially non english speaking ones. In the case translation is planned, NPCs who can let you switch languages have to be placed in all "strategical" areas. The problem of the item designation could be solved by the client: the information windoid could mention the english name along with the translated one, I am almost sure that 4144 would add this feature if it became useful.

I don't think that releasing only client data translation would be worth the effort if it is not included in a longer term perspective. I would involve though, with the intention to test how far and fast we could do it and test the possibility of going further.

According to what I can see in wiki, it is possible to find reliable translators in French, Spanish, Russian (I miss feed back about it), German (though I know that there are a lot of players speaking German quite fluently ), and somewhat Polish, Italian and Indonesian (langages were taken in the same order as wiki translation coverage). At this moment, none of the wiki translation is finished , except the french one for obvious reasons , but wiki is a bit different than server data...

[Crush]

For those sub-communities from countries which have no or very bad English education in schools, there is always the option to create an own server and localize the content on their own. This has already been done. See tmw-br and GermanTMW.

This way of localizing the content has the advantage that it doesn't delay the content development on the official server. It also allows the players to converse in their native language in public. The downside is, of course, a fragmentation of the player community.

[fuadfauzi]

Hiya there, I do understand about the localization. Its quite hard to server the local language one-by-one as well.
As I learned, we may also provide the main/mother language of the world (such as English, France, Espanol, Arabic) would be fine (personal opinion)...

BUT, we here come from Indonesia, such of player still confused read the help on client or when they read the wiki. By now, I joined the translation team for Indonesia on Transifex. But, May I translate the content on Wiki? Please advise me.