Modular Magic and More H0nks

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KrofGninut-H0nk
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Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by KrofGninut-H0nk »

I had some ideas, but I forgot them. Lets see if I can remember...

Concepts----------------------------
----Modular magic------------
It has been implied in the game that each thing as specific magical properties (such as a coccoon having the properties of lightness and expansion), and this has allowed peetu to create a "cage" by modifying a shield spell to emphisize ingredients that hinder movement (and this cage broke by being tampered with the expansion effects of a cocoon in the ingredients).
Likewise, the words in spells seem to be more than merely random (#kularzufrill and #frillyar both involve arrows, and both have "frill" in them).

What if there was a way to mix and match spell words and ingredients to create various custom effects (and many spectacular backfires).
Just imagine it...someone casts #flaryar and either it starts raining fire...or the spell does something entirely unexpected (such as exploding in the casters face) because those words were not meant to be paired together.
Could make spell research a real thing in-game. Throw in the fact that various combinations require various ingredients and/or magic skill to pull off that is hard to know in advance, and I think it would make for an interesting game dynamic.
Also applicable to custom potions too.

(to make it fair, you could have book items and labs where NPCs have already tried to experiment, giving people hints as to what works and what doesn't).

---Focus extensions-------------------
These are like...a modification of an existing focus, or perhaps a focus that requires a certain proficiency in another focus to obtain in the first place. Think "skill tree".
For example, you have astral soul, but from there you have the option to evolve that into something that emphisizes one school of magic much more at the expense of the others.
This could also be required in order to proceed beyond lvl 2 magic, and the only way to continue growing in a school (by specializing and focusing your efforts on one in particular).
An example of this might be...if you choose to specialize in life magic. You still have the spells of the lvl 2 magics, but you can now learn lvl 3 life magic (at the expense of not being able to learn lvl 3 war magic, for example).
Perhaps this concept can start general (such as the division of direct and indirect), and continue getting more specific (some schools could be naturally paired together, such as astral and nature, but eventually you gotta pick one).

---Expodiential magic levels------------------
I think the going trope that is a good idea is that magic is expodientially more powerful with each level of magic.
Level 1 magic isn't really all that impressive, and does not cut it for serious gameplay.
Level 2 magic is, obviously, what we use, and is considered sufficient, and sometimes even overpowered.
Level 3 magic should be to level 2 magic what level 2 magic is to level one magic. Balanced by difficulty of use, of course. Or the forced specialization idea mentioned above (where the higher up you go to learn magic, the more you have to specialize, to the point that at the top tier, you may only have one top-level spell at your disposal).
Level 4 should be much better than level 3, and so on.

----Spell stuff---------
Spells that do harm through physical hurts (like stone or ice spikes, or frillyar and chiza*) should do physical damage based on M attack, not magic damage or "earth damage" whatever that is supposed to be. What is "earth damage" supposed to be anyway?

*Chiza might be an exception if the damage is coming from a magic energy surrounding the blade rather than from the blade itself; it makes sense that the blade would just be a base for the magic energy to latch onto.

-----non-mage stuff---------

Wow, with all these possibilities in the field of magic, it doesn't make archery or swordfighting terribly interesting by comparison, does it?
Gotta think of interesting things to give the physical fighters.

How about...a focus that improves the drop rate of loot based on the characters luck stat? It would both make luck-based characters interesting and would cost the focus slot to use.
Though now that I think of it, why not have evolving focuses for warriors and archers too?

QUESTS!-------------------------------
A few quest ideas, but the general idea is as the player becomes more and more powerful, he is able to (and is put in the position to be responsible about) participate in quests about much more serious things, including (pardon the cliche) things that threaten the world itself.
So far the worst that players can face is a couple of witches trying to steal their soul to raise an undead army.
Ideas are:
-Preventing the incarnation of an outer god into the universe (or on the dark path, facilitating it).
-Actually fighting (or serving) incarnations of malignant entities of unimaginable power.
-quests to ascend to a level beyond the limit when you hit the level cap. Perhaps something like "god tier"?
-not actually remembering a lot of ideas here :P.


Items--------------------------
Digested foodstuff - dropped by slime +50 HP; lampshade on how slimes drop perfectly edible foods.
"This 'food' was found inside a slime. You don't know what it used to be, and even though you just pulled it out of a slime, you are going to eat it anyway, aren't you? You are disgusting."

Charcoal - a less efficient alternative to coal using logs. Requires twice (or three times) as many to produce the same things as coal, and costs money to burn the logs into charcoal.

Weapons----------------------
-----------staves--------------
I think that mage weapons should be things that modify how spells work more than anything else. Such as by enhancing spells, reducing spell cost, or enabling spells that would otherwise not be castable. (do note that if the item completely eliminates the cost of spell ingredients, then the spell awards no magic exp)

Grand root - waives the requirement of having a root to summon something. In addition (maybe), the standard attack is replaced by a way to order your summons to attack the monster you are targetting.

Flare stick - This wand allows you to charge sulfur powders into it, using them to replace the standard attack with flar blasts. The flar blasts still cost sulfur, but this weapon eliminates the need to cast a spell in mid-battle.

Firebelch - This device uses sulfur powder to let loose a flowing stream of flar blasts. The device is highly inefficient, but the stream of fire it produces cuts through most monsters quickly.

Druids arm - this branch ripped from the druid tree contains nature magic, bent against it's origional purpose. Allows spells that root an enemy in place, inflict poison, or other such things.

Elder rod - this disturbing construction was made from the skin and bones of an ancient dark mage. It allows one to animate fire skulls with a skull, a dark crystal and some sulfur powder. It also allows one to summon a dark spirit that manifests from the dust on the ground, but this is much weaker. Finally, it allows you to summon a dark guardian that is temporarily grafted to you, and takes damage on your behalf (maybe it attacks independantly too? I don't know).

------------Other-----------------

Crystal Knife - Not very strong on it's own, but acts as an inexaustable spell component for chiza.

Parrying dagger (shield) - this "shield" is a knife that is used as an off-hand weapon to catch an opponents weapon. +5 attack, +5 defense, +5 dodge, +5 accuracy

Warding lantern (shield) - this jack-o-lantern doesn't stop physical attacks at all, but it does soak up incredible amounts of magic. Essentially an anti-magic shield.

Ether blade - This sword allows normal attacks to do magic damage instead of physical. Does not require any knowledge of magic to use.

whatever bow (make up new names that are better than the tacky ones I come up with) - A bow that, although not powerful, creates it's arrows out of the ambient magic around you. You never need to buy arrows for it.

Thats all I care to type for now; may add more later. H0nk.
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Jenalya
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by Jenalya »

Wow, that are a lot of ideas. I'll see if I can address some of them. :)
KrofGninut-H0nk wrote:What if there was a way to mix and match spell words and ingredients to create various custom effects (and many spectacular backfires).
Just imagine it...someone casts #flaryar and either it starts raining fire...or the spell does something entirely unexpected (such as exploding in the casters face) because those words were not meant to be paired together.
Could make spell research a real thing in-game. Throw in the fact that various combinations require various ingredients and/or magic skill to pull off that is hard to know in advance, and I think it would make for an interesting game dynamic.
Also applicable to custom potions too.
Actually, this idea is amazing. Do you intend this as suggestion to keep in mind, or would you be interested on working on this yourself, maybe trying to implement such a flaryar spell, and think about more possible combinations and how to integrate them into the game?
KrofGninut-H0nk wrote:These are like...a modification of an existing focus, or perhaps a focus that requires a certain proficiency in another focus to obtain in the first place. Think "skill tree".
It's not clear yet of how we're going to expand the skill system and higher level magic, but the idea of making additional focus skills require to be focused on others, so it would be like a skill tree, has been brought up during that discussion. This applies to both magic and the other skills.
KrofGninut-H0nk wrote:A few quest ideas, but the general idea is as the player becomes more and more powerful, he is able to (and is put in the position to be responsible about) participate in quests about much more serious things, including (pardon the cliche) things that threaten the world itself.
So far the worst that players can face is a couple of witches trying to steal their soul to raise an undead army.
Ideas are:
-Preventing the incarnation of an outer god into the universe (or on the dark path, facilitating it).
-Actually fighting (or serving) incarnations of malignant entities of unimaginable power.
-quests to ascend to a level beyond the limit when you hit the level cap. Perhaps something like "god tier"?
-not actually remembering a lot of ideas here :P.
Those kind of rescue-the-world quests could make it difficult to keep the player balanced towards the (storywise) power of some npcs, e.g. the magic teachers. If the player is already powerful enough to fight beings of unimaginable power, why should they need advice from a mere wizard? Or have respect of Santa and the Sages of Kaizei?
Regarding content behind the level cap, I still have the opinion that we should first focus on filling the gaps we have in content for the existing levels, there are some level ranges where there isn't any quest available and you have to grind to get a higher level where new quests are available.
KrofGninut-H0nk wrote:Digested foodstuff - dropped by slime +50 HP; lampshade on how slimes drop perfectly edible foods.
"This 'food' was found inside a slime. You don't know what it used to be, and even though you just pulled it out of a slime, you are going to eat it anyway, aren't you? You are disgusting."
That's a funny idea. :lol: If someone (you?) provides a gaphic for that, we can add that. Maybe the dropped item could give less or no HP, but there could be a possibilty to clean it, turning it into actually edible food. Or have a function that applies a random effect if you eat it before cleaning, with the chance of poisoning.
KrofGninut-H0nk wrote:Charcoal - a less efficient alternative to coal using logs. Requires twice (or three times) as many to produce the same things as coal, and costs money to burn the logs into charcoal.
Would be possible, but would it be useful?
KrofGninut-H0nk wrote:I think that mage weapons should be things that modify how spells work more than anything else. Such as by enhancing spells, reducing spell cost, or enabling spells that would otherwise not be castable. (do note that if the item completely eliminates the cost of spell ingredients, then the spell awards no magic exp)
As far as I know it's possible to check for equipped items in the spell logic, not sure though. If so, this could make an interesting addition, but would need some careful balancing to not make mages too powerful. So getting such a staff would have to be rather expensive and difficult (maybe a minigame with a chance to fail, similiar to monster oil), and the effects shouldn't be too powerful. (Some of the ideas you listed sound reasonable.) Also, adding this would require some background story and npc script about the staff making. Do you have any more detailed ideas about this, or would like to work on that?
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by KrofGninut-H0nk »

I don't really know how to help code and develop (I've had some experience with BYOND when I was younger, but I haven't done anything like that in a while).


I might be willing to learn if I was pointed in the right direction on how :P. Right now I post in this forum to offer something to make up for lack of development ability.
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by Crush »

KrofGninut-H0nk wrote:I don't really know how to help code and develop (I've had some experience with BYOND when I was younger, but I haven't done anything like that in a while).


I might be willing to learn if I was pointed in the right direction on how :P. Right now I post in this forum to offer something to make up for lack of development ability.
Note that programming is a skill which takes months to learn, years to get fluent in and decades to master. Few people are born with a passion for programming. Those who don't have the passion have a hard time learning it and will likely give up.

But when you really are serious, google for "learning c++ programming", do some tutorials and create some programs on your own to understand the basics. Then get the TMW client and/or server soucecode and try to understand and modify it.
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Please do not send me any inquiries regarding player accounts on TMW.


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Jenalya
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by Jenalya »

For working on content, it's not needed to be a c++ programmer.
Here's a guide of how to set up a local testing server: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/How_to_Develop Setting that up is needed for testing your changes.
In case you're on windows, there's this guide: http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... on_Windows, but I'm not sure if it's completely up-to-date.
If you have questions about it, feel free to join the irc channels, #themanaworld-dev to discuss development ideas and #themanaworld-support if you need help by setting up your local testserver. Depending on timezones, it might take a while until someone answers.

About further advice, it depends on which of your suggestions you'd like to work on. :)
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by o11c »

I also have a great need of someone to do some fairly simple (albeit technical), but time-consuming, documentation. But so far everyone has given up after a few pages.

Honestly, I think I'm going to have to do it all myself, which means stopping *all* of the cleanup work that only I can really do. I would be very happy if someone was willing to step up and do the documentation stuff for me, but it's not worth all the time it takes me to explain it if they give up before I really get anything in return.
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by KrofGninut-H0nk »

I guess the main idea in the post (modular magic) is going to need invented a sort of "language" for magic; words that are used in the mixing and matching. Let's see if I can infer some meanings...
(also note that some words here may actually be two seperate spell parts that are together).
(additionally, the intent is to take an effort to avoid having to completely overhaul the current spell words to make them fit into a non-arbitrary system).

#plz (from #itenplz) - maybe this one (because of it's similarity to "please") may be a part of spells that request that monsters (that are already present, not summoned) to do something for you.

#iten is probably a synonym for aggravating, which itens can be due to thier incredible amount of dead weight and the fact that they are a by-product of spell failure.

#parum is already known to mean make a figurine of, and
#boo apparently means mouboo. Doesn't really need to be said.

#kal - all of the existing summoning spells start with this
#murk - maggots
#renk - spiky mushrooms
#akarenk - fluffies
#aka - minus the renk (which is for mushrooms); if the word for fluffies is an extension of the word for mushrooms, it might have some interesting implications.

#in (from #inwilt, #inzuwilt, #ingrav, and #inma) - could mean to transfer energy from one place to another.

#grav - lightning, probably.

#man and #pahil are probably seperate words, and #man is probably related to the #ma in #inma (probably pertaining to life force).
#pahil might have to do with transmuting existing life force into another (crystalline) form.

#wilt probably has to do with other people's presence (as in #inwilt), and
#zu (#inzuwilt) is a specifier for a "spouse.

#anwiltyp has two parts on either side of #wilt; #an and #yp. It is a spell that has to do with clouding detection by astral magic, so at least one of the words are probably used for technical reasons. #yp is similar to #miteyo's #yo.

#mite probably has to do with magical entities, since #yo and #yp probably have to do with detection. (maybe #yp is an inverter for detection?)

#as in #asorm is likely related to the #an in #anwiltyp, both spells involve astral magic.
#orm is likely something that involves rooting oneself astrally (to give magic resistence).

#kaflosh has #ka (which is kinda like a shortened #kal, used for summoning), and #flosh, which kinda makes you think of water (maybe #flo and #sh?)

#zukminbirf is a complicated one, but has three elements to the spell: Iron, powderize, and does not alter what the substance is, just the form of it. It is also a spell that was obviously found through experimentation and trial and error. The spell is long enough to have at least three words in it, unlike...

#gole might be tricky to dismantle, since it converts one substance into another with very few possible word components.

#pat is used all all spells that make clothes out of cloth. #loree apparently means tank top, and #vi is a shortener modifier. Has a completely different word for a normal shirt (#Muploo), although both words have doubled vowels at the end.

#betsanc is a spell that imparts the hardness of a hard spike to yourself, and has at least 2 possible parts in the word. #sanc does have "an" in it, and may be related to the #an and #as in some astral spells (both such spells involve protection of a sort, #asorm giving magical protection, and #anwiltyp giving protection from magical detection).

#mar in #upmarmu may be related to the #man in #manpahil, in the sense that #upmarmu may enhance the life force in your fists (it was hinted that beer is life, and beer is the spell ingredient).

The #um in #parum may be related somehow to #lum

Need to come back to this later, at a better time.

List of spells for spotting patterns:
#miteyo
#itenplz
#abizit
#gole
#parum
#lum
#kalmurk
#chiza
#flar
#inwilt
#inzuwilt
#chipchip
#plugh
#kularzufrill
#manpahil
#joyplim
#kalrenk
#kalakarenk
#upmarmu
#kaflosh
#patviloree
#patloree
#patmuploo
#frillyar
#ingrav
#betsanc
#anwiltyp
#zukminbirf
#asorm
#inma
#skrimp
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by KrofGninut-H0nk »

o11c wrote:I also have a great need of someone to do some fairly simple (albeit technical), but time-consuming, documentation. But so far everyone has given up after a few pages.

Honestly, I think I'm going to have to do it all myself, which means stopping *all* of the cleanup work that only I can really do. I would be very happy if someone was willing to step up and do the documentation stuff for me, but it's not worth all the time it takes me to explain it if they give up before I really get anything in return.

I wouldn't mind helping out, but I'm not sure if I would have the time to do this in a dependable manner.
What sort of documentation do you mean?
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by o11c »

I think it's awesome that you're trying to find patterns, although I don't think *truly* modular magic will happen any time soon.

I do think you're looking a little bit too hard in some cases - e.g. I don't think betsanc and asorm are really related. (also, I would say a == an, and split it at sorm)
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by KrofGninut-H0nk »

o11c wrote:I think it's awesome that you're trying to find patterns, although I don't think *truly* modular magic will happen any time soon.

I do think you're looking a little bit too hard in some cases - e.g. I don't think betsanc and asorm are really related. (also, I would say a == an, and split it at sorm)

I imagine not; game development by volunteers has proven to be rather slow XD.

It would be easier to make a modular system if the spell words were overhauled, but that would come at the enormous cost of changing what is familiar to the players.
I suppose some simple words (like #gole and #flar) may be simplified for new mages and that the modular spell parts might only be usable at magic lvl 3.

But yeah, better to have the ideas already floating around so that they are polished and refined by the time the coders get around to implementing it XD.
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by Jenalya »

There are some interesting ideas in your list, but I agree with o11c that in some cases the connection is a bit forced.

About #itenplz, as far as I know that's a joke about people begging for free items in bad spelling "Iten pls", which makes people angry...

In languages, stuff often happens, because it's easier to pronounce, so in such a case like #kalrenk and #kalakarenk, I'd assume the 'a' I made bold to be only there to make it easier to pronounce, since #kalkarenk is uncomfortable to say.

In the context of #parum boo, it also might be helpful to know/read what Fate (the dev who invented almost all of the original magic system and quests) wrote about the old Tritan language Auldsbel talks about: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 12#p131012
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by KrofGninut-H0nk »

In this post, I will try to come up with some ideas for an overhauled magic vocabulary, in case it comes to that.
I think there should be three types of spell fragments; those pertaining to what is being used (fire, lightning, fluffies, etc), one that determines how it is being used (summoned, launched as missles, bursting out of the ground, etc), and spell modifiers (overcharge, extended range, extended duration, target, etc).
Also, while some of these words are inspired by the existing spell system, the new spells might have to have more parts in them to be specific enough to recreate the same effect. A spell that is not specific enough may successfully manifest the elements asked for, but not in a useful way. I think it is a good idea for the spell to assume you are targeting yourself when you don't specify a target.

#flar - fire
#grav - lightning
#renk - shrooms
#murk - maggots
#kalrenk - fluffies
#terr - stone
#sorm - soil
#sorr - sand
#flosh - water
#chi - ice
#frill - arrows
#man - life force
#zuk - iron
#gole - ashes
#wilt - people
#kular - wood
#boo - mouboo
#bet - spike
#wlosh - air
#liyth - silk
#biyth - cotton
#chiza - knife
#mar - fist

#plz - request
#iten - aggravate
#plugh - float
#yar - rain
#pahil - crystalize
#birf - powderize
#parum - scuplt
#zu - transmute into
#pat - sow
#in - transfer
#skrimp - condense
#sanc - harden
#plim - inspire
#chip - cut
#kal - summon
#lum - heal
#abiz - analyze


---modifiers--
#vi - shorten
#up - enpower
#an - invert


----other notes---------
I've mentioned before that I think each element should behave in a manner unique to that element, based on the particulart of how that elements works anyway.
For example, lightning functions by flowing electrons through the path of least resistance (and is thus very hard to control; will tend to hit whatever is closest to you)...while cold is an absense of heat (and to make cold, you have to put that heat somewhere else; that is actually how refridgerators work).

Aside from this, the different ways the spells can be implemented can also affect thier effectiveness against certain enemies. One that causes spikes to burst out of the ground would not be effective against flying monsters, but would be very strong against monsters who stay close to the ground (such as snails).
Need to put ideas on ingredient properties too later. Feel free to add your own suggestions too.
We need more words for various specific things, such as bottles and other things that may be useful in spells.
May also make a spreadsheet of possible combinations of two spell fragments (which may serve as low level spells; higher level spells may require more spell fragments in the words); do offer good signs that this might be implemented.
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by KrofGninut-H0nk »

Some have suggested that it would be nice if the words were shortened.
Maybe each spell fragment could be consistantly two letters each?


...but then, should we allow all possible two letter combinations, or only constanent-vowel combinations?
Last edited by KrofGninut-H0nk on 18 May 2013, 21:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by Chicka-Maria »

I don't think shortening them would be great to be honest, their names give them a unique role to play. Shortening them would make it less adventurous and fun in my opinion. (also it might be harder to remember spells ironically, with shorter names)
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Re: Modular Magic and More H0nks

Post by KrofGninut-H0nk »

Chicka-Maria wrote:I don't think shortening them would be great to be honest, their names give them a unique role to play. Shortening them would make it less adventurous and fun in my opinion. (also it might be harder to remember spells ironically, with shorter names)

If the spells are overhauled to require more spell fragments (to be more specific about what they are doing), not shortening them might lead to longer spell names than we currently have.
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