Is the Banshee Bow over powered? (or Bull Helm)

[bell chick]

Why not making those new items wearable by lower level players too?
Edit: and let the same necessity of stats to get those bonuses.

you can tell that by design there were meant to help level up higher level players when they reach the area that the xp needed verges on the ridiculous. as such theyre fine with level restrictions

[LordDune]

Why not making those new items wearable by lower level players too?
Edit: and let the same necessity of stats to get those bonuses.

you can tell that by design there were meant to help level up higher level players when they reach the area that the xp needed verges on the ridiculous. as such theyre fine with level restrictions

At the expense of stealing XP from lower and mid-level players. In 6 months, when there are hundreds of those bows in TMW, it will force new players to leave the game. A prediction of course, but in my opinion there needs to be something to adjust the game.

Possibly have areas for +90 players only, much harder than the GY is. And having areas only for players under level 60, under 40, etc. 90% of TMW would remain common areas. Or make certain areas come with restrictions, where you can't use any of the Boss items. There are many ways to help fix this, but it is going to be a problem that gets worse every day until it is dealt with.

[v0id]

Possibly have areas for +90 players only, much harder than the GY is.

It is planned and being worked on. It takes time though as it comes as part of a new area with new quests.

[o11c]

Why not making those new items wearable by lower level players too?
Edit: and let the same necessity of stats to get those bonuses.

you can tell that by design there were meant to help level up higher level players when they reach the area that the xp needed verges on the ridiculous. as such theyre fine with level restrictions

At the expense of stealing XP from lower and mid-level players. In 6 months, when there are hundreds of those bows in TMW, it will force new players to leave the game. A prediction of course, but in my opinion there needs to be something to adjust the game.

Possibly have areas for +90 players only, much harder than the GY is. And having areas only for players under level 60, under 40, etc. 90% of TMW would remain common areas. Or make certain areas come with restrictions, where you can't use any of the Boss items. There are many ways to help fix this, but it is going to be a problem that gets worse every day until it is dealt with.

Agreed. The question, of course, is whether we have a total player base enough to sustain it. Well, since it's possible to solo in the graveyard, it's probably doable.

[bell chick]

Why not making those new items wearable by lower level players too?
Edit: and let the same necessity of stats to get those bonuses.

you can tell that by design there were meant to help level up higher level players when they reach the area that the xp needed verges on the ridiculous. as such theyre fine with level restrictions

At the expense of stealing XP from lower and mid-level players. In 6 months, when there are hundreds of those bows in TMW, it will force new players to leave the game. A prediction of course, but in my opinion there needs to be something to adjust the game.

the mid and low level warriors have gotten the short end of the xp stick for quite some time. now that the archers are losing xp its the end of the world?

[cinderweb]

It is strong no doubt but how well does it do compared to the other rewards

[wushin]

First. Yes, someone has looked at how the powerful of the banshee bow is in game.
These mobs are what it takes to make a level 99 warrior/archer stacked either rager or banshee bow, miss occasionally and not almost always crit . (I'm still tinkering with mobs)
//ID, Name, Jname, LV, HP, SP, EXP, JEXP, Range1, ATK1, ATK2, DEF, MDEF, STR, AGI, VIT, INT, DEX, LUK, Range2, Range3, Scale, Race, Element,Mode, Speed, Adelay, Amotion,Dmotion,Drop1id,Drop1per, Drop2id,Drop2%, Drop3id,Drop3%, Drop4id,Drop4%, Drop5id,Drop5%, Drop6id,Drop6%, Drop7id,Drop7%, Drop8id,Drop8%, Item1, Item2, MEXP, ExpPer, MVP1id, MVP1per,MVP2id, MVP2per,MVP3id, MVP3per,mutationcount,mutationstrength
1113, Thug, Thug, 180, 5000, 0, 8000, 999, 1, 125, 250, 40, 6, 0, 10, 50, 0, 40, 80, 1, 10, 1, 0, 2, 175, 500, 1200, 672, 480, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2, 40
1114, Swashbuckler, Swashbuckler, 180, 5000, 0, 7000, 999, 1, 75, 250, 18, 22, 10, 20, 30, 20, 80, 80, 1, 10, 1, 0, 2, 175, 400, 800, 672, 480, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2, 40
1115, Grenadier, Grenadier, 180, 5000, 0, 9000, 999, 8, 100, 200, 8, 60, 2, 10, 40, 50, 80, 80, 1, 10, 1, 0, 5, 175, 500, 2000, 672, 480, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 2, 40

Notice:
Level 180, Luvia is level 120.
The amount of luk needed to overcome the Banshee bow crit.
The amount of agi/dex needed to dodge more often.
The skill mallard's eye helps more than speed on these mobs.
Magic becomes a more reliable method of DPS then warrior or archer
Vit becomes a necessity.
Ragers are favored over archers for DPS.
This high mob agi/dex/luk combo on mobs changes tanking as the DPS output could get insane with a low defenses.
Range 8 eliminates a lot of the ranged advantage and validates the tank.

Outside environmental effects that vary stats/quantity of mob needed to take out a Illia equipped player:

Mob spawn type grouping A.K.A. Organized patrols.
Teaming mobs together based on stats make them harder to defeat than one on one.
Ranged & Tanked mob. Mobs the operate at different speeds, hit and life.

Floorspikes. Penalizes movement. Indestructible.
004-5.gat,56,57,0|script|#spikedfloor2|393,0,0,
{
end;
OnTouch:
specialeffect 303;
misceffect 26, strcharinfo(0);
percentheal -10, 0;
end;
}

Ideas to balance the Bow/Bull out:
Improve mallard's eye to give a higher hit rating.
Add a new skill that lowers DPS but increases defense and hit.
Add new gear with better def ratings. (Vit, DeF, Evade & Dodge.) Make the good ones shields with a high magic penalty. Improve Warlords set this way.
Add new gear with bonuses to Accuracy. Either (+bHit) or (+agi/dex -luk)
Add more support spells that increase Evade/Dodge rate on another player.

I'm open to all ideas.

[mas886]

I think that the bow isn't really over powered because for making it useful you need to wear alot of Bottles Of watter, i don't knw about the bull helm :-/

[Cassy]

Copy & paste my opinion, written on IRC:

Code: Select all

[15:31] <Cassy_at_work> V0id: about the Banshee Bow I'm really not sure
[15:32] <V0id> on which point exactly, Cassy_at_work
[15:33] <Cassy_at_work> I know from myself that the malus is tough cause I only have 588 HP now (don't forget it also reduces your max HP by 150) and after a few seconds they are down to ~300 leaving certain mobs being able to kill me in one hit
[15:33] <Cassy_at_work> though I have say I have a special build as mage/archer
[15:34] <Cassy_at_work> have to say*
[15:34] <V0id> for what you are saying, it seems it's doing the job i intended it does
[15:34] <Cassy_at_work> yes, exactly
[15:35] <V0id> hmm, so i don't get what you are "not sure" about :D
[15:35] <Cassy_at_work> I see valid points in both pros and contras about weakening it
[15:35] <V0id> okay, got it
[15:36] <Cassy_at_work> ;)
[15:36] <Cassy_at_work> imo it's balanced in player vs mobs, but imba in pvp
[15:37] <V0id> it's usually what happens with such design of items. it's hard to say if the balancing is good between bonus / malus
[15:37] <V0id> but if we took the calm and safe road of boring items giving +1 in some stat, it wouldn't be satisfying
[15:37] <Cassy_at_work> about the pricing issue I think some fools just came up with the idea of making the Banshee having a higher value than other Illia items (except the heart btw - this one is the real most valueable one), because if you are an archer you want the bow, if you are a warrior you want the bull and as mage the robe
[15:38] <V0id> yeah
[15:38] <Cassy_at_work> it depends on how you wish to fight and when someone comes with the argument about different exp: it depends on your build (more agi), not on the illia item
[15:38] <V0id> i've seen several times people wanting to buy a banshee bow. it's demanded
[15:38] <V0id> usually it's the first item they want when trying illia
[15:39] <V0id> then i've see a few of these people going backwards and selling it for a bull
[15:39] <Cassy_at_work> I think it simply looks awesome ;)
[15:39] <Cassy_at_work> that's the most reason

[o11c]

Even with the malus, Banshee Bow is definitely overpowered (healing is cheap). We were at the limit of balance before those additions, and then they passed it.

I have not investigated the Bull Helm or other items.

[Chicka-Maria]

I disagree, healing is not cheap at all. Chicken and water add up when you have to heal once every few seconds, arrows get to be expensive and such as well. The bow isnt over powered IMO. You pay for a lot by money and by health...I go through a million gp within a day sometimes.

regards,

[Johanne Laliberté]

Hi!

I agree with Chicka, I spent a lot of money to get potions, water and chicken legs and arrows!

Thus I spend my time & money not just for me because I don't need to level up but making quest like Candor, Cindy and Gy with players and friends. And about warrior same thing in potions. By the way, I always pay attention for lower players who play around me. Few players are happy when they need our help to kill some stronger mobs they can not attack those.

We are already enough quite disadvantaged by loosing health/defense as Archer with Banshee Bow or Warrior with Bull Helmet.

So, I think we deserve these good gifts as is!!!!


Regards

[straelyn]

A more balanced approach might be to take away one of the bonuses and cut the penalty in half.

[SudoPlatypus]

Bull Helmet is finally a plausible way of leveling a character as a tank, with either speed or rage.
The health penalty for the Banshee further balances things out between the Tank/Archer war for experience.

I think all three items: Cow Helmet, Bow & Robe from the Sister's quest are great the way they are.

Please don't lower the power of the Bull Helmet.

If you are really itching to tweak something, stick it to the Archers

[SriNitayanda]

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =4&t=16887
this disscusion was raised before.

* The Banshee Bow is really great for levelling, but get prepared to spend a lot of healing items, especially if you use potions. "Lot of healing items" means you ll need to heal like every 10 seconds if you use conc/iron pots. Also, you ll never be with your HP full ever, you already suffer -150 HP and your defense is very low. You are often at 1-2 hits close to death. Conclusion: If you're bad at dodging mobs, the bow is not for you.
For farming, it's not good: you ll kill things faster but you'll blow your money away in healings... you can sit and wait 3-5 secs like Travolta suggests, but then, what's the point to kill faster if it's to sit and wait often ? just stick with forest bow.
* The Bull Helmet is great too for levelling and farming also. It deals less damages (but not that less as seen in previous posts) than a banshee bow, but you dont really need to worry about a mob spawning in your back. You can even play tank with it: with vit 85 and a Heart of Isis, I never needed a single heal in Candor. Nothing new here, it's the same differences than the classic warrior / archer debate: more secure, less damage.

from my exp using the banshee is expensive even with heart of isis, and your survivablity rate really drops with it, usually when there is candor, which starts with 5 basnhee users u wont see more than 1-2 survive all the run. those who survive use lots of water for full run. if you do hardcore leveling you can spend about 50k or more per day on healing.
besides you rarely see banshee bow archer in illia now days, ppl prefer the safer way of using the bull helmet for fighting against luvia and witch guards.
Travolta was also raising the issue of banshee in pvp,

The banshee bow gives fantastic advantage in PvP. Nobody win against it. It doesn't matter how much vitality, agility and luck the target has, he has not chance. The archer simply makes critical hits with 450 damage, and the oponent dies in 2-3 hits. Do you find balance in it?

One player killer already got the banshee bow, and sooner or later many will have it, no matter what they say. Until now at least a tanked mage could survive against an asormed pvp-archer, now even that "backdoor" isn't an option.

from my exp tank mages can still stand quite good against banshee bow even if the archer is asorming himself. banshee bow even with terra arrows and potions, does no more than 400 dmg to betsanced tank mage with 95-100 vit. with heart of isis and lvl 94-99, it takes 4-5 arrows to kill the mage if all arrows hit, but not all arrows hit again thanks to betsanc, thus the mage is sometimes able to cast the second ingrav before the archer can get the killer arrow. (this was tested against banshee archers leveled 91-99, with tank mages 94-99) mage can also betsanc the opponent archer to slow him down without any penalty for the mage, cause betsanc doesn't affect magic dmg.
so there is still a "back door against everything as i see it".
besides pvp is not such a big thing in tmw, the only time it might be a big thing for the regular player is when he grinds for the terranite armor. still if you dont have a banshee and you are killed there by banshee users i think you'll find players to help you with it, if it is really such a big problem. though there are still other ways to avoid PK's and besides i dont notice them around lately.
in other times when pvp is a big thing like in events there is usually enough mess, that even ragers can get close enough to mages and banshee archers and kill them.