Is the Banshee Bow over powered? (or Bull Helm)

[Travolta]

Hello players,

I would like to ask your opinion about the new bow that appeared in the game, the banshee bow. Do you think it is too strong? Here are the stats of it:
Damage +90
Range 6
Attack speed +20%
Chance of critical hit +60% (!!!)
-150 HP
Defense -40%
VIT defense -35%
Vanishes HP by 4% per damage dealt
Requires lvl90, Dex80

It is an awesome bow, thout it sucks your blood really bad But doesn't it give too much advantages?

Even if the archer's critical chance is only 10-15% with forest bow, with banshee bow it becomes 70%. Which means that more than 2/3 hits with it are critical. With iron and concentration potions you can make 450 damage. Now lets multiply it with 3-4 hits per second, and we get damages like never before. It's possible to kill jackos with it, or even clear the room with 10 yetis. I was told there used to be a bug which allowed making really fast hits with setzer, and players were clearing whole maps alone It's a little like that.

In Candor a mage with high attack speed can get around 1-1.5 million XP. How much can get an archer with that bow? It makes leveling really easy I think (if the player has a healer around)

The banshee bow gives fantastic advantage in PvP. Nobody win against it. It doesn't matter how much vitality, agility and luck the target has, he has not chance. The archer simply makes critical hits with 450 damage, and the oponent dies in 2-3 hits. Do you find balance in it?

One player killer already got the banshee bow, and sooner or later many will have it, no matter what they say. Until now at least a tanked mage could survive against an asormed pvp-archer, now even that "backdoor" isn't an option.

The players who wish to test the banshee bow (or any other new item) can log in to test server. Remember: don't use the same username/password as on main server

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Travolta

[GiGi]

I'm not as well informed as you Travolta, but Id have to agree, having been on the receiving end in PvP already and observing this bow in action in Candor plus Cindy Quest, where nobody else comes even close to the damage of the Banshee Bow, regardless of level or stats.

There is a few exceptions, if Level 3+4 level in magic were to be introduced, and probably the ability to level past level 99, it may even things out a little, but I dont see that happening any time soon.


-GiGi

[bell chick]

id tend to agree the archer was already a bit overbalanced as a class and i dont see why there was the need to put them even more over the top

[fearme]

Im an Archer and really i only use my stats in Candor and the Illia quest other than that im a super fast warrior in the gy... but that bow sounds awesome!!! i need it

[Lota]

Did you also count the critical bonus given by terranite arrows ? It can go easily until 80% then.
I don't understand why the most fast class have the best critical rate. Maybe something like +40% would be more balanced.

Archer is already the most powerful class for now.

[Travolta]

Did you also count the critical bonus given by terranite arrows ? It can go easily until 80% then.
I don't understand why the most fast class have the best critical rate. Maybe something like +40% would be more balanced.

Archer is already the most powerful class for now.

Lets take a player with 80 luck and 100 dex. With forest bow his critical chance is 25%+10%(terra arrows bonus). If he equips the setzer, his critical chance would be 40%. I find these numbers balanced. There is s good reason why ranged weapons have lower critical rate than melee weapons -- distance attack is simply already a huge advantage. Besides, warriors need to spend stat points into 5 stats, when archers don't really need much vit and str.

When the player has high critical range (above 70%), ranged or melee weapon, he usually never misses on a target, no matter what it's defence/evade is. Before the banshee bow appeared, only warriors with raging skill had such powers, but they were paying a high price for it, and I find it right.

But if we give an archer a banshee bow, it's like we add 150-200 to his luck for free! And it doesn't really make difference if he uses terra or usual arrows, because of his high critical% he always does very high damage and doesn't miss on his target. It allows him to kill jackos and skyches, or players with 100 vit, 100 luck and 80 agi.

Oh and if you say "in pvp ragers also have huge advantage", then I say, that you can run away from a warrior with raging skill, but try to run away from luvia

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Travolta

[janica]

I went on Testing server, and tested Banshee bow on Graveyard monsters. My stats were:
1 96(+4) 40 1 99(+1) 70

I had terranite leg and chest armor equiped, with warlord boots, cat ears, leather gloves and terranite arrows.
I was focused on Speed skill, lvl 9, while my character lvl was 91.
I could kill skeleton and lady skeleton with 9-10 shots, and 2/3 shots were critical ones. With zombies it was a bit harder, but I could kill him in 15 seconds, again 2/3 shots were crit.

Then, I tested the bow to its maximum hit , by topping luck untill 99, and rasing vitality to 65. Performance of the bow was amazing, Critical was 100%, so I could kill skeletons, lady skeletons and zombies as fast as a player at 40th level could kill maggots. Fallens and jack o's were also easy to kill.

On the main server I play as an archer with forest bow, level 89.
In my opinion, this bow is too strong, if you add certain bonuses and stats, and skills.
It's a huge difference from playing with forest bow, feeling is amazing, but to me, it seems a bit unfair to play with such powerful bow.
On the other hand, Banshee bow eats 150 hp, and vanishes HP by 4% of damages dealt, so it's useful to have a healer nearby.

Overall, great bow (hard to get, though), great attack rate, eats up HP, but a bit over the top.

[Shainen]

Key point is that this bow is difficult to obtain and by design of Ilia quest only by players above level 90 and in most cases >95. As a warrior I take no issue with an occasional high level archer playing next to me with this bow. My worry is that (at some point) it will become more common in the hands of multiple lower level archers and further diminish the use of other classes. I don't want to see this become an archer only game as it has already become the preferred class for leveling. Banshee bow is a great weapon, just don't want to see it overly exploited in the future.

[Tiana]

it will become more common in the hands of multiple lower level archers

The bow cannot be equipped if the character is not level 90+, so at least that will not be a concern.

I tried it out on the test server myself, it is very strong but the quest to get it is difficult. The health/defense malus does make it so that you either need to have a healer nearby or a good supply of healing potions along with being fast enough to avoid the mob. I tried it on the lone jackO and I had a hard time moving fast enough around that smallish area to live long enough to make the kill. I don't play too often as archer though, I've always been more a warrior-type

It will be interesting to see how this gear fits in as more groups complete the quest.

[Shainen]

it will become more common in the hands of multiple lower level archers

The bow cannot be equipped if the character is not level 90+, so at least that will not be a concern.

Good to know, thanks Tiana, I didn't realize that was built in.

[Rakimt]

I tested the Banshee Bow against the Lazurite Robe on a local copy of eAthena by turning off monster movement and timing how long it takes to kill some monsters. I used level 95 characters with these stats (taking item bonuses into account):

• speed archer: 1 100 20 1 100 58 / with terranite arrows
• lucky archer: 1 82 20 1 100 80 / with terranite arrows
• super archer: same as speed archer, but with iron and concentration potions
• mage: 0 99 50 110 0 12 / with ingrav

The results versus Jack-Os were:

• speed archer: (average: 22.5) 17.2, 27.0, 23.2, 25.1, 22.3, 21.9, 24.3, 21.1, 19.6, 23.6
• lucky archer: (average: 24.4) 23.1, 23.0, 25.6, 26.1, 26.5, 23.2, 24.8, 24.6, 23.3, 23.9
• super archer: (average: 10.6) 11.0, 10.2, 10.5, 11.6, 12.0, 8.9, 9.3, 9.6, 11.6, 11.2
• mage: (average: 16.7) 16.4, 16.1, 17.6, 16.2, 19.1, 16.2, 16.4, 16.2, 16.2, 16.1

... and versus yetis:

• mage: (average: 12.9) 13.3, 14.7, 13.3, 11.6, 11.5
• speed archer: (average: 16.0) 16.5, 17.7, 14.8, 15.0, 16.1
• lucky archer: (average: 18.6) 15.7, 16.3, 22.6, 20.5, 17.7

Notes / Comments:

• I focused mostly on attacking stats, but the bow drains so much health the archer almost dies without getting hit
• as you'd expect, the mage was the most consistent, while the speed archer was much less so
• terranite arrows and potions are much more expensive than ingrav

[GiGi]

Awesome testing Draugn.

I too tested the robe vs bow in a much less mathematical way, against Yetis with tank archer and speed mage. Without potions the archer made a little less than half the kill, with potions he made almost 2/3 of the damage. Apart from in PvP where there is no match to the bow, I would say the items are equally matched.
Just protect the mage because they can no longer run, with that 15% reduction in walking speed. It's a challenge even to do the Cindy quest without dying.

[Travolta]

I tested the Banshee Bow against the Lazurite Robe on a local copy of eAthena by turning off monster movement and timing how long it takes to kill some monsters. I used level 95 characters with these stats (taking item bonuses into account):

• speed archer: 1 100 20 1 100 58 / with terranite arrows
• lucky archer: 1 82 20 1 100 80 / with terranite arrows
• super archer: same as speed archer, but with iron and concentration potions
• mage: 0 99 50 110 0 12 / with ingrav

The results versus Jack-Os were:

• speed archer: (average: 22.5) 17.2, 27.0, 23.2, 25.1, 22.3, 21.9, 24.3, 21.1, 19.6, 23.6
• lucky archer: (average: 24.4) 23.1, 23.0, 25.6, 26.1, 26.5, 23.2, 24.8, 24.6, 23.3, 23.9
• super archer: (average: 10.6) 11.0, 10.2, 10.5, 11.6, 12.0, 8.9, 9.3, 9.6, 11.6, 11.2
• mage: (average: 16.7) 16.4, 16.1, 17.6, 16.2, 19.1, 16.2, 16.4, 16.2, 16.2, 16.1

... and versus yetis:

• mage: (average: 12.9) 13.3, 14.7, 13.3, 11.6, 11.5
• speed archer: (average: 16.0) 16.5, 17.7, 14.8, 15.0, 16.1
• lucky archer: (average: 18.6) 15.7, 16.3, 22.6, 20.5, 17.7

Notes / Comments:

• I focused mostly on attacking stats, but the bow drains so much health the archer almost dies without getting hit
• as you'd expect, the mage was the most consistent, while the speed archer was much less so
• terranite arrows and potions are much more expensive than ingrav

I understand the point of your testing. You wanted to measure the banshe bow's damage at max agility. I did the same with raging skill, having 110 strength (with bull helmet), above 90 agility, 50 luck(more is not needed) and about 60 vitality. I used iron&concentration potions, and a mage was healing me. I had 1850 damage per second, which gave me about 50-60k xp per minute (speed mage in Candor can make 40-50k per min.). My conclusion was: this is fun, but pointless, because I die really fast without healing. I guess you had the same thoughts with the bow.

But let's tune the archer's stats a little. Let him give 60 vitality, 30 luck, 100 dex, the rest agi. At level 95 you'll get 82 agility, at level98 you can have 90. And the archer needs the Heart of Isis. And let him give usual arrows, since there is not much difference with the terranite arrows. With 30 luck and banshee you get 83% critical chance.

Killing mobs becomes becomes so easy! Of course, your life drains, but when it's under 200HP, you just sit down, drink a bottle of water, and recover within 3-5 seconds. You can fill 100 bottles of water, and they last quite long (about 1-2 hours, depending on your play style). And you don't need potions for farming, only water.

What about leveling? The damage per second with potions is 2200, so can you get up to 100k xp per minute? I guess you can. And I already mentioned, there is no protection against an archer with banshee bow in pvp, thou some naive players believe with proper stats and equipment it's possible.

I play ManaWorld about 2 years. I was finding it fun to test different builds and stats, I was always looking for some "universal" stats that are good for everything. And I found 1-2 builds that almost satisfied me. But what's the point in all those experiments, when an archer at level90 can make more damage than me at level98? The game is just becoming less fun for me. Mostly stats should determine how strong the player is, and not some cheating items he is wearing.

My conclusion for banshee bow:
* Farming with it is too easy (requires only some healing items)
* Leveling is too fast (needs lots of healing thou)
* No defense against it in pvp.

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Travolta

[Travolta]

Unfortunately those players who could give really useful feedback about using banshee bow, don't answer my post. I talk about Fiona, NitayandaRama and V0id. If you want, please tell us about your experience using it.

[Rakimt]

You wanted to measure the banshe bow's damage at max agility.

Actually I was just responding to the topic by comparing the Banshee Bow with the Lazurite Robe. The robe beats the bow against the most difficult monsters except when you're on steroids, even with stats that — as you point out — aren't very realistic as an archer.

* Farming with it is too easy (requires only some healing items)

Farming small monsters (like red slimes) was already easier as an archer; I agree the Banshee Bow would imbalance this more. Having said that, it's only the extra speed that really affects this.

* Leveling is too fast (needs lots of healing thou)

Do you think this applies to the other items? I haven't tested the Bull Helmet, and I only really play as an archer, so it's hard to comment.

* No defense against it in pvp.

Agreed. I don't play pvp, but I've been killed by the bow, and there's really no defending against it. It's quick, it has higher range, and it criticals even against people with high luck.

Mostly stats should determine how strong the player is, and not some cheating items he is wearing.

Again, do you apply this to the other items?

I agree with the sentiment; I'd like to see more varied items rather than simply more powerful items. Part of the problem is just that any new powerful items make it easier to level — and new monsters too. Levelling was much harder before the graveyard, and yetis.