[Testing] Low cost Magic

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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by Hello=) »

As for "low cost" magic...
I did some playtesting on test server (caliban.homeip.net - "testing server" world), trying to raise low-level mage and learn this cheap spell. Attempted to use minimal set of debug features (only setting char level to 40 and some items for quests) to have better idea how it actually feels for player.

At first glance its funny that #flar (which is meant to be stronger and more expensive version as I understand) works "immediately" - with no war magic school knowledge at all :mrgreen:. As long as caster knows spell, can use magic and haves sulphur powder, it fires. It has been initially meant for beginners, its 1st war spell to learn so its okay I guess.

In terms of damage flar is even somewhat good at low levels, since it always hits (which is an issue for newbies) and not so bad damage (in terms of newbies), though very few shots. So its super-expensive (for newbies) if using ways offered by game itself. Because of low number of shots and quite costly ways to convert ash to powder.

Then, #acornshot does not works for me for some reason. When I do it ... nothing happens. I got general magic lvl 1 and war magic lvl 2 - overall it takes considerable time for quests/monster points/etc, but I'm still not being offered this spell anywhere. Can someone show me code which teaches player to use this spell and/or give full description of prerequisites to use #acornshot? I've also attempted to set lvl2 general magic manually but it hasn't worked either and attack still does not works. How do I learn this spell and what it takes? I thought cheap and crappy attack meant to be "newb mage's best friend", no? What I'm doing wrong with it?
o11c wrote:It has always been intended that high-level mages can cast low-level spells for free.
It makes sense. Though currently most daunting issue with existing magic system to my taste is that leveling of low-level mage as player's 1st char is a PITA, thanks to lack of cheap attacks and the fact its a really troublesome to hunt stuff while having mage's stats.
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tux9th
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by tux9th »

The only requirements for this spell are War Magic 2 and an acorn.
If you do not have an acorn it doesn't work. If you don't have War Magic 2 it doesn't work.

If I remember correctly getting war magic wasn't all that hard. It's rather easy and you just have to talk to both swords once.

I made this spell war magic 2 so that it is not that easy to get but easy to use. This is also just one bit in the complete rebalance. I like to think one day at a time. I cannot write 5 new spells and balance them and let you test all of them at the same time.

Thanks for testing. Keep it up.
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

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tux9th wrote:The only requirements for this spell are War Magic 2 and an acorn.
If you do not have an acorn it doesn't work. If you don't have War Magic 2 it doesn't work.
Strange, because I both have acorns and war magic level 2 on mentioned server. But casting spell does nothing. No effect, no attack replacement, no messages. #flar works on other hand, etc.
If I remember correctly getting war magic wasn't all that hard. It's rather easy and you just have to talk to both swords once.
The only spell sword gives easily and freely is #flar - given at very start with no any demands at all IIRC. This seems to indicate it has been meant as "newbie spell" (which is not going to work this way due to spell cost).Then, further learning of war magic requires running into dangerous cave to find 2nd sword (really deadly and challenging on low levels, newbs sometimes request help with this part), getting a number of monster points, etc. Quite long and challenging tasks for newbies. And if newbie is about to go mage, points should be put to int, which screws up efficient hunting with physical weapons, obviously. Generally, mages suxx at using physical weapons (except some few high-levelers who gone for strange hybrid setups).
I made this spell war magic 2 so that it is not that easy to get but easy to use.
And what's the point of new spell, then? As I view it, cheap (but relatively weak) spell could help newbies to learn magic and hunt stuff early. Then they could upgrade to better/more expensive spells, resorting to cheap spells when getting low on budget. Actually, in terms of newbies, flar could even be called "somewhat powerful" spell, thanks to ability to hit anything and then doing some damage on relatively hard targets, so using it wisely could be nice idea. Yet newbie does not stands any chance to get enough sulphur powder to actually use flar as main attack of low-level mage. There is no way to sustain like mage this way. I thought your spell meant to fix this problem to some degree? But then I guess it should be one of earliest war spells to obtain? And the stronger mage gets, the less mage needs to have free or cheap attacks as magic attack increases. High level mage could actually use bolts as primary attack, killing enough stuff to outweight attack expenses (unless its something like maggots hunt, which is suboptimal with bolts of course).

I see it this way: offer your cheap attack instead of flar to newbies and then make flar as stronger but more expensive "upgrade". Should mage be able to hunt stuff with cheap spell, flar could be interesting to use on stronger monsters to get more monster points, XP, job XP, etc.
This is also just one bit in the complete rebalance. I like to think one day at a time. I cannot write 5 new spells and balance them and let you test all of them at the same time.
I dont demand anything like this IMHO?
Thanks for testing. Keep it up.
Would try. But at the moment I got stuck. News message on server suggests spell should be here. But it does not works for me for some reason. I have acorns, general magic level 1 and war magic lvl 2. But this spell not works. Chiza and flar worked fine for me though.
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by tux9th »

This spell is only up on the Testing World at caliban or on sagdas.net
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

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tux9th wrote:This spell is only up on the Testing World at caliban or on sagdas.net
Well, I detected why it fails. It also takes level 2 in general magic :alt-2:, but it was not declared anywhere at all. Needless to say my newb mage had no level 2 in general magic after some half day of playing. It has been enough trouble to get war 2 in more or less fair ways already.

IMO it's a way too hard bunch of requirements which makes this spell pointless. Getting war2 and especially general magic lvl 2 takes a while. And what's the point to get fairly weak spell when being lvl 2 mage with war 2 magic? I fail to understand this. At this point mage can shot bolts. If mage has gone so far, its not likely there is huge need for this spell. On other hand, lack of cheap attack spell at begin of mage studies is a real trouble for mages. As it also makes it hard to collect stuff needed for spells. Needed to get to lvl 2 magic. I think it should replace flar as 1st spell from sword and frillyar could be considered as some more expensive "upgrade".
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by Kazenawa »

I've just tested it and it looks fine. Finally a real low-cost spell ! :D
It was missing ! :lol:
t3st3r wrote:Getting war2 and especially general magic lvl 2 takes a while. And what's the point to get fairly weak spell when being lvl 2 mage with war 2 magic? I fail to understand this. At this point mage can shot bolts. If mage has gone so far, its not likely there is huge need for this spell. On other hand, lack of cheap attack spell at begin of mage studies is a real trouble for mages. As it also makes it hard to collect stuff needed for spells. Needed to get to lvl 2 magic. I think it should replace flar as 1st spell from sword and frillyar could be considered as some more expensive "upgrade".
You can get general magic level two pretty quickly even as a newbie... Collect raw logs and ask for another player to convert you bug legs into lifestones. I don't know the exact magic experience given by #parum boo and #lum, but for sure with 50 logs and 50 lifestones you'll have got enough magic exp to reach general magic level 2 (if you alternate the spells of course).

I agree that i don't get the point to learn it after you get general magic level 2. It's gentle, it's an acorn shot :lol:
However, if you could get it right at the begining, it would be even easier to get magic level 2.

Also, does it gives magic exp ? I see some kind of exploit from it... Alternatively casting #acornshot and something like #manpahil of #frillyar (arrows are cheap) would be a great way to get magic exp easily...
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by Frost »

I played with acornshot a bit, and I really love it!
Specifically, I like that
  • I can freeze some monsters
  • it's easy/cheap to get acorns as a mage
  • I can usefully farm for things like iron ores without hiring a warrior-slave.
  • the ingredient is light, and thus easy to carry as "back up"
  • I think it's funny to shoot acorns
  • it's NEW!!1!1!
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by tux9th »

Low Cost magic doesn't imply that it is only for newbies and low level players.

regards
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by Kazenawa »

tux9th wrote:Low Cost magic doesn't imply that it is only for newbies and low level players.

regards
Real, with a high magic level, you're finally able to do magic with nearly nothing :D
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by Hello=) »

tux9th wrote:Low Cost magic doesn't imply that it is only for newbies and low level players.
Right. But:
1) High level players can live without it. In fact they already did somehow for last 3 years or so. For lvl 90+ with laz. robe, self-maintenance isnt a huge problem unless mage plays dumb and wastes a lot of charges on worthless crap which does not covers expenses. Resource management is a headache for mages but on high levels its manageable, after all. On lower levels current magic system just fails as mage cant maintain self.
2) Now you have unique chance to fix one long standing and annoying issue in TMW magic system and make it more fun for newbies.
3) With proper balacing this spell or flar could be good candidates to fix sh*tty grinding of mages. For example if flar would be a bit stronger, faster and larger range it would be a real "upgrade" and could fix inability of mages to grind things like slimes in anyhow efficient ways (aka anyhow comparable to archer or warrior of same level).

In fact I can see at least 3 or 4 other players suggested similar things as well. But okay, I just took a look on it and voiced my opinion as player (who plays most of time as mage and often helps newb mages, so I know mages problems well enough :mrgreen:). Everything else is up to you. I think I told enough on topic.
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by Freeyorp101 »

t3st3r wrote:
tux9th wrote:This spell is only up on the Testing World at caliban or on sagdas.net
Well, I detected why it fails. It also takes level 2 in general magic :alt-2:, but it was not declared anywhere at all. Needless to say my newb mage had no level 2 in general magic after some half day of playing. It has been enough trouble to get war 2 in more or less fair ways already.
Anything that requires a higher level of magic should also require the same level in general magic. Are there exceptions now? Perhaps this could be made more clear?


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(09:58:17) < tux9th> Freeyorp: your sig on the forums is kind of outdated
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

Post by ItchyDemon »

What's the problem with using #flar to grind on slimes? I've been doing it for about ten levels (since at least level 65, and I'm now 74), and very rarely do I run out of sulphurs -- but only because I wasn't paying attention to how much I have. It's simple enough with high Intel to lightening-bolt a few skulls for ash then convert them to sulphur :wink:
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Re: [Testing] Low cost Magic

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ItchyDemon wrote:What's the problem with using #flar to grind on slimes?
1) Low levels unable to obtain enough sulphur powder to maintain self by using magic attacks. You cant kill enough fire goblins with flar: they have huge fire resistance. Fire skulls are not an option for low levels. So how low levels are supposed to get ash as mage?
2) Stats needed for magic are really irrelevant to stats of archer or warrior. So at beginning if you want to be mage, it have be some really weird and suboptimal mix of stats, much less efficient than any "dedicated" setup.
3) Low cost magic can fix 1) and 2) very well. Just place acornshot instead of flar and make flar an lvl 2 upgrade with requirements like acornshot. After all, acornshot is weak and flar is far better so it would be logical if it haves more requirements to obtain. On other hand it would allow low-level mages to level and improve magic skills.
4) If we'll consider equally levelled mage, damage-optimized warrior and archer, mage in fact suxx in terms of grind rate. It can look like this: I kill 3 slimes with flar. Rager or speed archer kills 6-8 in same timeframe. Cool, isnt it? So almost nobody uses mages to grind stuff :mrgreen:
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