Starters Area Makeover [DIS]

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Chay
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Starters Area Makeover [DIS]

Post by Chay »

The Starters area might need some makeover since it seems to scare players.
If you have any suggestions what you think a / EVERY good starting area needs ...

please post here or on irc.

Aye Chay
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o11c
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by o11c »

The current starting area was designed to solve the problems that people had with the previous starting area. Any change we make in future needs to keep that in mind.

I'm not convinced we need to do anything other than make a place that high-level players want to go nearby ... Hm, maybe make one desert exit more dangerous than just the one to Tulimshar?
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Shainen
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by Shainen »

I'm not sure that the options are clear enough for new players in this starters' area. Many feel they are trapped without exit once the quest option is triggered. Perhaps the option to bypass the quest could be more clear. Possibly dialogue from npcs could provide more encouragement to complete the quest in order to gain exit from the area.
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Crush
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by Crush »

Chay wrote:The Starters area might need some makeover since it seems to scare players.
If you have any suggestions what you think a / EVERY good starting area needs ...

please post here or on irc.

Aye Chay
Why do you think the starting area "scares" players?
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AnonDuck
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by AnonDuck »

It certainly scared away a few people I tried to bring to the game. They spent time being confused over the interface, and frustrated they couldn't leave the area to explore.
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Chay
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by Chay »

Crush wrote:
Chay wrote:The Starters area might need some makeover since it seems to scare players.
If you have any suggestions what you think a / EVERY good starting area needs ...

please post here or on irc.

Aye Chay
Why do you think the starting area "scares" players?
thank you for not staying on topic:
regarding your Question:
https://trello.com/c/Mm9VcdzO/90-tulims ... rting-area
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v0id
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by v0id »

it's perfectly on-topic to ask *why* in order to answer *how*.
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by Crush »

Chay wrote:
Crush wrote:
Chay wrote:The Starters area might need some makeover since it seems to scare players.
If you have any suggestions what you think a / EVERY good starting area needs ...

please post here or on irc.

Aye Chay
Why do you think the starting area "scares" players?
thank you for not staying on topic:
How do you expect to find a working solution before you have analyzed the problem? We need to formulate some theories what factors exactly scare away new players. Then we need to find proves which support or debunk these theories. When we have strong evidence that they are true, we can think about how to fix them.

Just changing things while following blind intuition would likely cause new problems without fixing the actual ones.
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Chay
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by Chay »

Crush wrote: How do you expect to find a working solution before you have analyzed the problem? We need to formulate some theories what factors exactly scare away new players. Then we need to find proves which support or debunk these theories. When we have strong evidence that they are true, we can think about how to fix them.

Just changing things while following blind intuition would likely cause new problems without fixing the actual ones.
Crush you are correct the original post was not carefully written.

I never intended this thread to provide a solution ( maybe I should have written a different title, it seems to have misguided some readers), I am fully aware that analysis needs to be done.
This thread however was meant to provide us with a toolset (i.e. possible additions changings to starting phase) for adjusting the starters phase.
Another topic is to phrase the problem precisely and analyze it appropriately. If and only if both (indeed commutable) processes are finished a problem solution can be attempted. Also I am not convinced that the actual analysis should be done in a forum thread, ( Viele Köche Phänomen )

I was thinking of the following roadmap:
  • 1. brainstorming
    a) brainstorm a toolset
    b)brainstorm possible problems
  • 2. analysis
    a) analyze toolset for feasibility -> applicable toolset (cannot be done by a crowd)
    b) analyze possible problems for validity -> correctly stated problem (same but less obvious)
  • 3. Application of
    the toolset
    to solve the problem....
  • 4. Implementation of a solution
this thread was about part 1 a) brainstorm a toolset.
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Kazenawa
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by Kazenawa »

One point could particularly scare the newcomer in my opinion : translations.

For those who doesn't understand english well, a hope is given when they select their language. However, translations are available for... few lines only...

I think there shouldn't be any language selection, leaving english as default, or if there's one, it should be complete. The "few lines only" thing leaves an impression of "unfinished". And as it is the first experience proposed to the player...
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by wushin »

Meh, intuition can only be used if you have any. Also bilateral paritision committees to meet to discuss formation of creating ground discussion in order to investigate ... leads to paper work. We have tools now, that prior devs never had access too.
http://frost.me0w.net/manastats/server.themanaworld.org
and
manavis.themanaworld.org
And if you check this link here http://frost.me0w.net/manastats/_server ... ptable.txt
You can see I've managed as good of uptime as guild (without using a bot) listening to players needs.
As the forums are nice and all, but the heartbeat is really in game.

A larger problem can be seen in manavis on starting characters starting stats they have chosen. People putting stats in INT from level 1 are going to alt+f4. Not to mention other builds which make that level difficult to play. Needs a combat instructor that lets anyone under level 10 respec free and explains what stat does what. Make Quest optional to leave the area.
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by Nard »

Chay wrote:The Starters area might need some makeover since it seems to scare players.
If you have any suggestions what you think a / EVERY good starting area needs ...

please post here or on irc.

Aye Chay
Why do you think it scares new players?
I think that the former starting place (the bazaar) was rather nice. It's major problem was that there was little quests and that the existing ones made the player dive into long grinding time. There was also little information about various aspects of the game. The actual starting area fills most of the previous lacks with smaller quests, and a lot of NPCs give a lot of information. The bad is that there is, maybe, too many things to remind with too many speaking NPCs. This can give a false impression of complexity. I noticed that when I tested this big work. Also the beginning area is really outside the paths followed by regular players. I was probably blinded by the amount of work and the many improvements. A simplification would be a good thing, but as all NPCs make a consistent whole, a "simplification" requires a close inspection of each NPC and it's role and a synthesis as well. The bazar area, in my opinion the first place to have a look on. It could be a kind of reference place as it was when I began to play this game. I think that this aspect has been partially lost with the changes.

Making exit of Tulimshar more difficult, would not bring higher level players more. the most recent maps and planned ones too, are enough. Anyway the map adjacent to "desert storm" are difficult enough and have enough content to bring more players in this area.

Please post here not on irc so everyone can follow the discussion. Forum is more appropriate for such a medium term reflection.
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by Nard »

Chay wrote: I was thinking of the following roadmap:
  • 1. brainstorming
    a) brainstorm a toolset
    b)brainstorm possible problems
  • 2. analysis
    a) analyze toolset for feasibility -> applicable toolset (cannot be done by a crowd)
    b) analyze possible problems for validity -> correctly stated problem (same but less obvious)
  • 3. Application of
    the toolset
    to solve the problem....
  • 4. Implementation of a solution
this thread was about part 1 a) brainstorm a toolset.
WOW! This what I call a roadmap!
I never saw such one in previous projects though Jenalya seemed to follow a similar way of working, thus Trello.

However something is missing before road map: specifications.
What is this area supposed to bring to the new player?
How can we give her/him the will to go on playing on TMW?
How can we give her/him the possibility to ask help to the community?
...
What kind of help could he have to avoid bad initial status choices?
At which level is she/he supposed to be able to go elsewhere (south mine, Hurnscald)
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by veryape »

To be honest I think that the starter area of this game is like most other mmorpgs. It mainly works as a tutorial learning the charachter how to walk, pick up stuff and attack etc.

This is the best approach imo. However it brings the same problems as it does for other mmorpgs I have tested, they are quite boring in the beginning and most of the players wants to "clear" those quests so they can go out in the "real" world and explore. The beginners area is mostly filled with people who are newcommers and thus do not know much about the game and game mechanics. And they are all in a rush to get into the real game.

I would like if there were a "explore the world-quest" where you should deliver post/packages around the world so you get out and about a bit and see that you are not all alone.

Another thing I think the beginners area would gain from is to have something that brings more seasoned players around, hopefully the new maps will help out with that since they will give a more safe place to hunt terranites.

Bottom line I think that npc's that give basic tutorials are fine and the right way to go. However I wish there were more high level players around that could give the noobs some tips/pointers on how to distribute their stats etc.
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Re: Starters Area Makeover

Post by Hello=) »

Crush wrote:Why do you think the starting area "scares" players?
When I shown TMW to some friends, they abandoned game because there was no action and overall it's pretty boring. So I guess current start area contributes a lot to low players retention. Quite few things has fundamentally changed since then. I.e. it got some tweaks, extra maps, etc but that's all. Fundamental properties of area were not improved too much.

Major issues start place and related game mechanics haves so far:
  • You have to do many lengthy but monotonous quests (low drop rate stinks!) and a lot of NPC chatter (not everyone likes it). No other meaningful actions to do (except leveling). Quite many players dislike this.
  • Bad efforts to rewards ratio in many places. Most quest take a lot of time giving rather small rewards. Most of alts just do not bother to do all these quests at all as they're unrewarding to say the least and there're far better ways to get xp and items.
  • Seasoned players avoid area, while it's quite large area, so it mostly looks abandoned. At same time players having trouble to learn how to leave that area. For some reasons docks aren't really obvious for many players.
  • No really challenging battles which would like dangerous adventure instead of monotonous grinding.
  • World looks rather static and dead overall.
  • Team-level actions are missing in noob area, but its half of MMORPGs fun. This is also nice way to learn players about party system. Though it's Duck on TMW due to lack of proper guild system so high-levelers use parties to keep long-term relations.
  • Right now you can't level magic at low levels. In fact you can't be mage without playing other classes first and resorting to half-cheating solutions like resets. This is IMO really odd. To play mage in the mana world you have to play half of game as someone else.
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