[FUSION] [DIS] TMW data merge & the economy

[Micksha]

Just voted for "burn it" for the following reasons:

EXP
If people want to play the game, they obviously like playing and do not care alot about doing the quests again and start collecting experience from scratch. Those who don't play active anymore get the chance to sit around on low level, or having more fun with doing the quests and stuff again. It should be fine to keep ones 99'ers in good memory and get some compensation (maybe even something nostalgic), besides letting them sit around and watch them deacy.

ITEMS
I would not really like to see some of the crappy TMW stuff in Evol. There are so many useless items. I would be fine with the idea of making some of them non-tradeable (especially rares like hats etc.), maybe also with special color.
I would also agree to leave some quest items to the players as I expect them to be some among many in Evol, and there will be way more diversity when it comes to weapons, so I suppose so It wont be an unfair advantage for old players.

MONEY
In order to create a working economy in EVOL I see almost no chance to import TMW wealth to EVOL. That can only be compensated by something else, like Items that are useful and maybe hard-to-get in EVOL. Anyway, remember money can't be eaten so when the worst comes to the worst it doesn't matter if you die rich or poor.

SKILLS, MAGIC
The skills and spells cannot be ported 1:1 to Hercules afaik, so I would really propose to remove that and make the player get it new. If he wants he can get it from scratch (and have the whole new game experience, which will be a great one!), and if he wants to use his 99 Char with imported experience he can do that too and quickly get the skills and spells he wants. Also there will be much more diversity when it comes to skills, the usage will be different etc.etc.

MAGIC EXP, JOB POINTS, BOSS POINTS
I suppose all that ^ will be different so there may be no point to keep it. Maybe compensate if community insists. See Skills, Magic.

COMMUNITY
If we all stay together the most important thing in the game (at least for me) will be 100% ported - the nice community you all are part of!

In general, I like the proposal from Pawneeboy:

I think the items that should be kept is the current quest items (IE Bandit quest, Cindy, LTQ, Illia etc), as for money maybe give all players a starting amount of money (all the same amount ofc), and let 1 character from every account keep its level and stats. (and to keep out players with multiple account check IP's)

So never mind, keep up the good work!

- Mick

[dragoon84]

how about 20k for everyone?? that a reasonable amount but i am still against the compensation scheme

[LostMemories]

i believe its way better to start fresh.

merging both is great........ but

if you Plan to merge with the full data, there can be ton's of problems.
Bugs/errors you name it, However if it is possible to merge both together without effecting evol then eh thats great!

I for one would be more concerned about having to start allover again level wise if its going to have the same quests, exp earn from monsters/ etc etc< which right now is to low on the tmw serv, I would also want to have an easier time gathering resources in game. Because as a working man i don't have time for this game as much as i use to I mean so be it if there are gamers that spend all day everyday on here there are others that dont have as much time.

[butters]

Migrate as much data as possible ...
save all the mobs, tiles ,maps, NPCS and quests, etc. use the ones that work with evol as is and put the other items on the shelf till they can be fixed and a place found for them in the game.
i wanted to vote for both but it wont let me....
Migrate the bare minimum and compensate the players ...
yes, let current players get some of the items and money they have when the move takes place, but keep in reasonable.
Giving them back "rare" items and "locking" them to that account would make them permanently unobtainable and wouldn't be fair to those who have been playing for years trying to get one. But let letting everyone keep most of or all they're items and money would flood the game and ruin it for new and old players and is a problem many have been trying to fix for years.
Rares, super rares and no-longer obtainable items have been a hot topic for quit some time.
It's made many here very angry and upset to the point where no decision ever gets made and it needs to be addressed when the merge takes place.
no-longer obtainable/unreleased itens should be removed and use, selling/trading limited to NPCs, GMs , Admin and developers until/and if they can be reintroduced into the game
I've played many video games with rare and super rare items in them. but not many that you had to play for years to get almost all of them. TMW is one of those games
there should be a balance of common, uncommon , rare items that most players can obtain, the rarest gotten by those who are persistent and/or work together and a few super rare items only for the most die hard fans, who , compleat all the quest, skills, collect the most items, grind the most mobs, level the most characters to 255, etc can obtain.
I've gotten a few not so rare items but not many, a few Easter eggs, some rubber bats (they-re old and don't squeak so well no more ) and a red-nose. I gave up on getting most of the rare itens after i learned you couldn't do quests to earn them anymore and i would have to grind for weeks on end to buy just one or wait for someone to drop one.
:
I hope to get to play the Christmas event again this year, it will be my 3rd and maybe last time.
alt-3: but that's OK , there will be new quests i can do.New items and maybe some i lost and a few i never had a chance to get before ....

[dragoon84]

i think that you should keep Luvia because she fits in evol history (its a history in that game with a guy tell it).
The new history goes as this: "A new island appear brought from another dimension by powerful and wicked witch named Luvia"

[knight]

i voted for migrating as much datas as possible, because i dont want to lose my items.
i've been thinking about this a lot lately, and i actually find the other option make more senses. i see the meaning behind this merging thing, and i finally came up to my mind and vote the second one.

All items should be converted into money

i dont see the negative side of it, yet, thus im supporting this concept.
well thats just my opinion,
sincerely,

Knight

[dragoon84]

As i said before in other posts the inventory will migrate to the evol too, so the possibility of you loose your items its rare unless those that are in the ManaMarket

[Reid]

As i said before in other posts the inventory will migrate to the evol too, so the possibility of you loose your items its rare unless those that are in the ManaMarket

That wasn't decided yet, but it is more likely that inventory items won't migrate to the new project, btw, the new project is not evol.

[dragoon84]

what i am saying that the TMW items its possible to migrate to the new project
its what meko says in the post that start this discussion

[Reid]

what i am saying that the TMW items its possible to migrate to the new project
its what meko says in the post that start this discussion

Yes it is possible, but we won't do it because as we try to explain on most of our posts, porting items, money or anything that was glitched in TMW will corrupt the new project economy and gameplay.

[gumi]

Yes it is possible, but we won't do it because as we try to explain on most of our posts, porting items, money or anything that was glitched in TMW will corrupt the new project economy

Which is why I asked whether or not they want to port items along with the corrupted economy, or start over with no items. If the majority chooses to still port the items I'm afraid we would have to do it as we can't veto decisions that passed majority, even if it would make the new game worse. Maybe the TMWC could vote to veto or amend it but I'm not sure. The only reason I made this poll is because a lot of players threatened to quit if they lost their items so this poll gives them the chance to choose not to loose their items, even if they know it would (prematurely) destroy the economy of the new project (just accelerating the inevitable though).

and gameplay.

We don't have to and shouldn't port item stats, just their sprite. You can give them whatever stats you want, or even no stats. And all unobtainable items from TMW would become obtainable in some way in the new project so even if we port rares they would become less and less rare with time.

[dragoon84]

but you can replace items with new items, what i am saying is replace TMW items with the items created in the game.

Example:
a player have a banshee bow in TMW you can create another bow with the same stats being this created in new game and replaced the banshee by the last at the account migration.

This is a way to keep the players happy or just burn everything and make the players start from fresh.

[mistergrey]

I think one big problem with this merge idea is that while it's implied it will be a combined project, it comes across as a game where Evol's team will be making all the big decisions overall. This is fine if true, but then these debate topics seem a bit pointless if the Evol team seems heavily inclined to just start from scratch to avoid absorbing our economy troubles.

I certainly see how transferring player levels could unbalance the new game, and money even more so. But the more I read about the desired economy in the new combined game, the more misgivings I have about it. TMW's economy is certainly unbalanced in many ways, but frankly as much as people may complain that it's just "IRC with hats"... every player likes playing their own way, achieving their own goals. Some say unobtainable items are unfair somehow, but the whole reason people show up for specific timed events is that if they don't, they may miss out on a cool prize. It's understandable that the new project doesn't want the new economy to be dictated by rare hats, but I'll admit that the idea of everything always being obtainable seems boring to me. Such an economy misses out on an element that draws many players, namely the chance of getting something exclusive/rare by showing up on the right day.

On a related note, player compensations (if any) are a tricky thing. Obviously, transferring over money, levels, entire inventories, could cause big economic troubles. One thing I've always noticed and enjoyed about TMW is that so many players, old and new, have a favorite hat that they wear most of the time. Even the oldest players, who often have nearly every rare hat, always have one or two special ones that have sentimental value to them (mine's the skull mask ). I wonder if it's implausible to make all of the rare hats and such into obtainable items in the new game, but to add specific recolors of them for TMW players transferring over. This would potentially allow each migrating player to pick their old favorite (provided they had it in their inventory), and isn't terribly far off from meko's early suggestion (in the compensation topic) of offering recolored obtainables to those moving.

I realize that this will seem silly to some, but like myself, quite a lot of players are really into collecting items, particularly useless unobtainables such as bent needles, flawed lenses, etc. Such players can get very attached to those things, useless as they may be. I won't write another paragraph about what could be done to make those people happy, but I do know many of those will probably quit if they have to start from scratch after years of collecting. I simply hope people won't be so quick to dismiss them as selfish or greedy, because they often feel the same way about those collections as other players do about their favorite equipment, and many of these are old "faces" that we all recognize and often enjoy.

I've seen a lot of players favoring starting fresh, and I fully understand that, but I feel the ones who disagree deserve to be heard out too, and not treated like they just want to bring some "awful, ruined economy" into the new game. We all value different aspects of the game, but first and foremost we should value each other, because the community makes the game. Thanks for taking the time to read this .

[wushin]

I think one big problem with this merge idea is that while it's implied it will be a combined project, it comes across as a game where Evol's team will be making all the big decisions overall. This is fine if true, but then these debate topics seem a bit pointless if the Evol team seems heavily inclined to just start from scratch to avoid absorbing our economy troubles.

1) The collective will agree to adopt the same self-governance as always between the Board, Committee and Staff with all current members retaining all current rights. Adjusted Charter for TMW-Evol: https://beta.etherpad.org/p/r.ebcdfd369 ... c17490fda7

2) I started one of Many discussions about the economy, balance and rares long before the union. https://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtop ... =2&t=19406 The economic troubles and wanting to do something about them is not that new. Specially not wiping accounts on new server migration. (See Source of Tales)

[mistergrey]

1. That's somewhat reassuring to hear, provided a significant enough portion of TMW's collective remain through the change.

2. This discussion you linked is basically 4 pages of mostly newer players complaining that they can't get everything easily, mostly older players justifying keeping some things rare, and some expected conspiracy theory about how the powers that be want rares kept rare, lol. This is hardly new, news, or a strange thing to see, especially in a game this old. There will always be new players who want the neat things they see when they first join, just like there will always be "veteran" players who wish to see the prizes they worked hard for remain rare.

While the money and hoards of supplies side of TMW's economy has always been very, very exploited and broken, this attitude of enjoying limited time or exclusive items is not a new thing, or even a bad one. You can solidly blame the exorbitant prices of "rare hats" on the insane amount of "money" in game... which itself is it's own long, ridiculous issue. Such a problem wouldn't likely exist in a new world where nobody has enough gold to control the market on these "rares". I don't imagine seasonal events will be very enticing if they offer the same reward/s every year, so that nothing is ever considered unobtainable, though.

And Source of Tales? You mean that entry for the Liberated Pixel Cup? Iirc, it did well, but never really went too far. I also don't recall much serious discussion about server migration for SoT, and rarely ever saw TMW players mention it. I think many would be excited for a new game altogether, but some are very attached to TMW, the progress they've made, even the things they've earned. So far this is not like telling people they have the option to join a new game; this is the option to join a new game, because of the closure of a game many have grown attached to.