[FUSION] Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Content and general development discussion, including maps, quests, and server code from the development team.

Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Yes, I want TMW and Evol Online to be merged.
33
77%
No, I want TMW to go its own way without Evol Online.
10
23%
 
Total votes: 43
Axalix
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[FUSION] Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by Axalix » 12 Jul 2016, 04:43

As you all know there are some plans about big changes: merge TMW and Evol Online. Surprisingly, this merge is announced as a decision even though I couldn't see any polls if community wants that at all. This poll should fill the vacuum.
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by gumi » 12 Jul 2016, 05:08

Sorry but this is happening whether you like it or not. Feel free to fork TMW and host your own server if you want to keep the old TMW alive (without the user data). We cannot and will not continue to support tmwAthena any further. Evol-Hercules is light years ahead of tmwAthena and has plenty of active developers to support it. The choice of engine changes almost nothing for the players besides slightly different gameplay and LOTS of new features.

Please use this thread to talk about whether or not to migrate the data from TMW to the new project:
https://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtop ... 7&p=152783
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by wushin » 12 Jul 2016, 05:33

Now, now meko. Nothing is set in stone.

It will be interesting to see what the poll returns. IMO, it's way early for a vote as neither side really knows the argument, but whatever.

My words last meeting were, On August 4th we will have a plan on how-to merge TMW/Evol off and hopefully have addressed everyone's primary concerns. It's why I made the discussion public.

The developers working on the merge would once again like to remind everyone that we are trying to find ways to keep as much as possible the same. Anything we as a group change will have justification and/or compensation to go with it. I'd imagine we will have lots of back and forth time.

Even if we all agree to do this, we are still talking months and months of work to get it all working right, maybe faster if we get more people. We planned to keep all discussions open throughout the process.

please keep this discussion in tone per rules, but please feel free to posts comments or concerns.
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by SriNitayanda » 12 Jul 2016, 06:42

meko wrote:Feel free to fork TMW and host your own server if you want to keep the old TMW alive (without the user data).
Why without the user data? if we find out that a large chunk of players want to keep TMW fork for nostalgic reasons or whatever and find someone reliable to host it, why shouldn't we allow it? kill the competition?
I do think the future is in the merge and i am not sure that TMW fork will survive for long, but why rule it out?

*edit reminder*
Last split, was a copy of the user data.
We should leave a copy of user data now too IMO.
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by deepthought » 12 Jul 2016, 07:29

I request those who answer no to state the reason against the merge. Let's have an open discussion. I'm in favor of this merge to happen.

1. TMW is messy and has reached the dead end.
2. Evol is based on Hercules server which is much more stable then the current TMW-Athena server.
3. TMW/EVOL merge will have many developers.
4. There will be more quests and levels which means more items and fun. You don't need to do pointless grinding.
5. There's good documentation for Hercules server and scripting which means even you can contribute.
6. The porting of quests in not so hard. If there's anything in TMW you like, we can implement the same monster or quest in evol/tmw merge with different drops/rewards.

I agree with nitay. If someone trustworthy is willing to spend money and would like to host the current TMW server, let them host. Whether it's game or real life, we tend to accept things fast and won't easily accept change. But a change is always good and this merge is a big game changer. I hope it brings back the golden days of TMW.
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by Axalix » 12 Jul 2016, 14:30

meko, no need to freak out and use Platyna's wording (we still remember who's a queen here). I am not asking technical questions, like what language devs should use or what hardware we need. This poll is about a gameplay and its changes that may affect players who like TMW "as is". I would love to see Evol maps and items in TMW, but I am against losing a bit of what players already have (all possible forms of stats).

If results are "Lets merge" you will have a legal agreement (I would even name it a "license") for all future changes related to a merge and noone will tell you a word how it's against the game policy. If not and you still make a merge this episode will stay as a sign of ignoring the community. As simple as that.

As for me, I only express my opinion but will accept any answer and see if the game is still interesting for me. So far I know at least 4 players who are ready to quit once these changes take place.

Have a good day.
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by bugs » 12 Jul 2016, 17:41

Axalix wrote:meko, no need to freak out and use Platyna's wording (we still remember who's a queen here). I am not asking technical questions, like what language devs should use or what hardware we need. This poll is about a gameplay and its changes that may affect players who like TMW "as is". I would love to see Evol maps and items in TMW, but I am against losing a bit of what players already have (all possible forms of stats).

If results are "Lets merge" you will have a legal agreement (I would even name it a "license") for all future changes related to a merge and noone will tell you a word how it's against the game policy. If not and you still make a merge this episode will stay as a sign of ignoring the community. As simple as that.

As for me, I only express my opinion but will accept any answer and see if the game is still interesting for me. So far I know at least 4 players who are ready to quit once these changes take place.

Have a good day.
I'd quit, as previously stated that the change will be hard for old players, I just won't be able to continue my grind in levels.
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by SudoPlatypus » 24 Jul 2016, 21:30

deepthought wrote: If someone trustworthy is willing to spend money and would like to host the current TMW server, let them host . . . I hope it brings back the golden days of TMW.
If Platyna were willing would TMWC give her the current server (complete with user data, user data that still has accounts originally made when it was hosted by her) so she could host it herself?

If TMWC were to give its current user data to anyone else, besides Platyna, so they could continue the game, that would only compound the the wrong done when her users data was taken without her consent back in 2013. Because unless you deleted accounts made prior to the 2013 move, the user data base you would be sharing [with who knows who] has accounts made after the move (owned by you) but also with accounts made before (owned by Platyna).
SriNitayanda wrote:
meko wrote:Feel free to fork TMW and host your own server if you want to keep the old TMW alive (without the user data).
Why without the user data? if we find out that a large chunk of players want to keep TMW fork for nostalgic reasons or whatever and find someone reliable to host it, why shouldn't we allow it? kill the competition?
I do think the future is in the merge and i am not sure that TMW fork will survive for long, but why rule it out?

*edit reminder*
Last split, was a copy of the user data.
We should leave a copy of user data now too IMO.
Of course anyone can fork and set up their own server, starting fresh with building their own user base. I am just saying here, "TMWC" has a chance, as well as responsibility to right the wrong. Start fresh on its own server, with users registering new accounts. And give the user account database that has accounts made before 2013 (Platyna's), and accounts made after the 2013 move (TMWC), to Platyna. But if you do not give it to Platyna, you do not have the right to give it to anyone else, unless you delete the accounts made prior to when you stole it.
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by Chicka-Maria » 24 Jul 2016, 21:50

Huge NO from me, if people want to go Dev for another game that's their own choice but to force another community onto a different game entirely is stupid. I get it, people don't wanna look lame taking the easy way out and just handing it over, if you wanna go dev for something else then go or if you wanna play another game then do it, forcing an entirety of a game that MANY people have worked through the years to MOVE is wrong of you. Honestly it's the lame way of giving up on TMW than just retiring. This game used to be amazing until there were changes in certain content of the game. It's hard to even find the barber anymore, i don't know why certain things didn't just stay the same. Retrace steps to when there were more players online cause apparently there was something keeping them there. If it's a host issue give it to someone who can be trusted to host TMW.

I've been here for 7 years now and lately in and out on alts and reading the forums only because of nursing school. I come back and this is going on? lol ridiculous. But i guess this would be the easy way out for everyone wanting to do this.

I lose respect for people just willing to give it away. If that's the case Platyna deserves it back, that would be more justified than merging with an entirety of another game and selling it off/giving it away like it's nothing.

If people wanna go play on another server then let them go on another server. If people wanted to play on evol they would go play on evol. Don't force it on players.

Again, NO.

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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by WildX » 24 Jul 2016, 22:34

Long time no see Chicka :D

This union will not destroy TMW. A lot of TMW content is being kept and improved upon. There will be attention to preserving some old TMW iconic locations as well. There is no forced move either. Most of the development efforts will move to TMW-Evol, but this is because each individual will have chosen to move. Nobody is forcing devs to work on something they do not want to work on.
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by Reid » 25 Jul 2016, 02:32

Chicka-Maria wrote:Huge NO from me, if people want to go Dev for another game that's their own choice but to force another community onto a different game entirely is stupid. I get it, people don't wanna look lame taking the easy way out and just handing it over, if you wanna go dev for something else then go or if you wanna play another game then do it, forcing an entirety of a game that MANY people have worked through the years to MOVE is wrong of you. Honestly it's the lame way of giving up on TMW than just retiring. This game used to be amazing until there were changes in certain content of the game. It's hard to even find the barber anymore, i don't know why certain things didn't just stay the same. Retrace steps to when there were more players online cause apparently there was something keeping them there. If it's a host issue give it to someone who can be trusted to host TMW.

I've been here for 7 years now and lately in and out on alts and reading the forums only because of nursing school. I come back and this is going on? lol ridiculous. But i guess this would be the easy way out for everyone wanting to do this.

I lose respect for people just willing to give it away. If that's the case Platyna deserves it back, that would be more justified than merging with an entirety of another game and selling it off/giving it away like it's nothing.

If people wanna go play on another server then let them go on another server. If people wanted to play on evol they would go play on evol. Don't force it on players.

Again, NO.

Chicka
There are reasons and future goals for this union, we do not use this as an excuse of laziness. We are planning everything to re-use, extend and improve what contributors has done for this project into a more efficient way.
We thought about it for a long time and we (as in tmw and evol devs) do all believe that this is the right choice to be able to have a "future".
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by bcs86 » 25 Jul 2016, 10:48

It has been easier for us at Evol Online to go along with a merge. But thus far I see only wushin working on it. Any time wasted to confusion is detrimental to both our communities.

One world under Manaplus is what we are either way. No one has made a new player-set, and the most radical ideas do not use the server paradigm of gnarly RO emulators.

Why are we not merging with Len's Whispers of Avalon? There is a lot more to be lost to incompatibility.
Ultimately the merge will happen insofar as 4144 has made a superior client that continues to be maintained, and contributes to a living server.

You will rage-quit. You will leave TMW, but it will not leave you. You will come back. There will be more noise from those who quit than from those who stay.

We've shared data, a client, even users, but we have not shared a server. It does seem unrealistic, but the people who work on these the most are not changing their mind.

In a way this satiates my need for revenge. If it fails, you can have what Platyna was left with after being burglarized, and for being an inept and inactive administrator to begin with. This is the curse of xAthena games. The structure always comes crashing down around its nasty contradictions. Nothing in nature is without contradiction, and that too is a contradiction at times.

Even though there is majority support for it, time wasted to confusion will count against both. All we have to lose is you, so precious that your account data was stolen from an inept administrator in Poland to keep the cards dealing.

Evol Online is better off without TMW. Evol has a good community and skilled developers. TMW has a lot of gunk under the rug. When I think of TMW, I remember things going everywhere such that the big picture was lost, among other lost big pictures under a pile of ideas that the developers never anticipated becoming almost vaguely popular. I don't want your trolls, I don't want your foul-mouthed intolerant jerks. I don't want your o11c and MadCamel, you can keep them.
The big picture and those who see the future for the big picture are what matters to Evol.

As for compensation and your account data, it is better off wiped-out. The end-game of every MMO is to die of inflation once the development can not keep pace with the desires of players for new levels of achievement, more of what the narrow-minded sort calls "content" - stuff to fill an empty box, having come from no emotion, going to a game as interesting as non-sentient beings.

If you must make contributions in the meantime, evaluate the commits that are answering the who what where when how and why questions. Remember Manaserv? This one is not optional unless 4144 wants to support an old version of the same server that he has been contributing to. Make your own client in brain-dead Python, or Perl in MC's case.

Wushin tells me this is about the future. Reid is all for it. 4144 is too busy to care about anything non-technical.
Yes it is easier for we at Evol to go along with a map change and lay the burden of making a new account on you.
Your only compensation will be, at best, "content", something created as heartlessly as you are regarded.

The future is on crack. Tomorrow never comes. Every moment wasted counts against every individual involved in development.
And it will be this way forever, unless put otherwise by a paradigm-shift.

Consensus and sincere efforts matter little to the objective reality saying this is a farce worth going along with as it will not go away. After all, what did Platyna tell you?

Once again, the 'plan', as the Joker might say, it will "just do things", like a dog chasing cars.
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Reid is the only one who I can say knows how to keep a steady course for many years.
Many years will lose you here and now for a there and then that has yet to fizzle.

Wish it luck. Put in some of that unimaginative "content" this ghetto is needed for.
A software project is run by the software. The software decides to evolve or it will die. Any sincere attempt at art is still waiting for the future.

Come join Evol. Leave this rust-bucket to the past it is buried under. https://www.evolonline.org/
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by wushin » 25 Jul 2016, 17:13

https://gitlab.com/groups/evol/activity

Hrmm... gumi, Nelson, omatt, Travolta, and monwarez. If you are looking for wushin activity you have to go back over a year ago when 4144 and me worked on the TMW to Evol converter the first time.

Plenty of help from others making posts and getting TMW's community involved.

I've done very little. Actually as little as possible.
Things wushin has done:
  1. World Map w/Development notes http://i.imgur.com/X1RSCIj.png
  2. What would need to be decided on and completed for a fusion to happen https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 0A/pubhtml
  3. How-to Handle Wholesale Item migration of Items. https://beta.etherpad.org/p/r.0d68ede46 ... 54b0c09240 & https://beta.etherpad.org/p/r.4aa1de53c ... 4adae0b00c
  4. Governance of the Fusion: https://beta.etherpad.org/p/r.ebcdfd369 ... c17490fda7
There is no US vs. Them here anymore. We inherited where we are now. I wasn't even TMWC at the time of the .net move. Nor at all involved with the Manaserv split. Nor CR1. ETC. We can not afford to follow similiar paths, thus we must discontinue the same behaviors that have brought us to where we are now. Many of us have wasted much time reproducing the efforts of each other. As per Reid's comments and others, we want to offer the communities what they both want; A large stable MMORPG that is like what TMW wanted to be in 2009.

Evol-herc is the Eathena Successor, TMWA is based heavily on Eathena (even uses the same packets). Even if we reverted TMW-server-data back to 2009 it would make even more sense to run it on evol-herc as during those times it was Eathena with Magic (Which Travolta coded into Evol-herc with the help from 4144 already). As 4144 already has UFB & TMW-br converted (Check with 4144). This presents us with the best of all possible worlds for an Ultra-2D-Nostalgia-MMORPG on many levels. That sticks to guidelines, balance and stories that we are deciding on as groups with community input.

We want to maintain the best of all possible outcomes of this Fusion for the Future. We all know there is more than enough work in any One MMO. All the time spent by the community on it; Admins, Developers, Artists, Musicians, GMs, Contributors, Testers, All of the various forms of Governance, and players. We want That Community to bare all it's fruit of knowledge upon the Fusion. Allow us to take The Community back to when Adventurers swarmed the servers in search of That Community. Let us fix the mistakes that lead us away from that purity.
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by bcs86 » 25 Jul 2016, 20:15

We want to maintain the best of all possible outcomes of this Fusion for the Future.
"We" is a brave word for an effort that has the collaboration-level of a game of bumper-cars!
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Re: Merge TMW with Evol or not?

Post by wushin » 25 Jul 2016, 22:21

bcs86 wrote:
We want to maintain the best of all possible outcomes of this Fusion for the Future.
"We" is a brave word for an effort that has the collaboration-level of a game of bumper-cars!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
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