[DIS] Level cap - CR1

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Bertram
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Bertram » 14 Oct 2009, 14:17

Hi,

Ok, here are the useful reference I read so far:
[For Magic:]
http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... _and_magic
http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Magic_system
http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Rune_combination
http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/Elements
http://wiki.themanaworld.org/index.php/ ... ementation
And the use of it:
http://gitorious.org/tmwserv-data/mainl ... /runes.xml

:arrow: After reading it all, I mostly agree (this system reminds of the Materia system and 'The Legend of Rudra')

I have two suggestions (to make it easier for us and for the player also, maybe):
  • Replace rune engraving by rune painting or similar, meaning that you could remove runes from equipment and handle them as you want them to be. For game cheating prevention, I would add that changing runes on equipment would take time; During that time, the player could still play, but the corresponding equipment would then be unequipped and unequippable.
    The corresponding crafting skill Runes'painting' would help decreasing that time.
  • Plus to this system of mana bar (which seem well thought once you've read it all), I'd let the spells cost magic points: Once you're out of MP, this means you're tired, and this means, that even with bars recharged, you have to go away to rest a bit or drink a potion. Otherwise, you could take a spot and keep it forever if you're strong enough.
    And finally, non-mana skills could still 'cost' MP as well.
[For Skills and Abilities:]
I'm in favor about this kind of system roughly described:
  • Every abilities would depend on one skill (to simplify using them).
  • Make Abilities (formerly known as specials) cost Magic Points.
  • Make abilities be available with one or all, or every combination of these conditions:
    • Having an item in inventory,
    • Being equipped with an item,
    • Being of the minimum level,
    • Being of the minimum skill level,
    • Being of the minimum other(s) ability level,
    • Having done a particular quest (meaning a quest variable has got the XXX value)
    and their potential reverse:
    • Not having an item in inventory,
    • Not being equipped with an item,
    • Not having done a particular quest (meaning a quest variable has got the XXX value).
Having some thoughts about it?

Regards.
Last edited by Bertram on 14 Oct 2009, 15:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Jaxad0127
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Jaxad0127 » 14 Oct 2009, 14:36

Bertram wrote:(snip)
Using "Magic" Points for all abilities doesn't make sense, IMO. How about a simple cool down timer for ability use and use MP for spell recharge?

Or at least rename MP. How about "Energy"?
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Bertram » 14 Oct 2009, 15:06

Hi Jaxad,

I'm for abilities recharge bars, to stick with magic system.

And as both should use some kind of energy based on points attribution, I would say 'yes', let's change MP for EP (Energy points).

Thanks and regards.
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Rotonen » 14 Oct 2009, 16:15

I'm starting to lean towards non-magic specials also coming from runes. They do mostly give fantastic properties to a piece of equipment.
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Bertram » 14 Oct 2009, 17:09

Hi Rotonen,

I fear cooking, or fishing couldn't come from Runes.

And as a player, I'd prefer let the runes mostly to magicians, even if the aim is to keep similarities.

Also, to be precise, do we agree upon the fact that Abilities and Spells (which are Magic Abilities)
would have their own experience and level?

(Let's take an example for magic, and then non magic abilities:)

I've got the Nature Magic Skill, and I get the 'Heat' Rune upon my low level armor.
While casting Heat spells, my Nature Magic Skill is increasing, but also my Heat magic ability would increase.
Each one having it's own level and way to increase.
The 'Heat' recharge bar filling speed based on Intelligence IIRC, but 'Heat' Ability level should make it fill quicker, the higher the level it is.
(After all, when you just learned a spell, you're not as fast, as someone who practised it a lot.)
When I got my first combination, I get also the corresponding ability and the recharge bar takes also this ability level into account.

It would be quite the same for non-magic abilities:

I've got a sword and my sword skill and a quest I just ended make me having the Dash ability:
Each time I fight with my sword, the sword skill is increasing, and each time I dash, I improve both Sword Skill and Dash Ability experience, each one on their own way.
the Dash recharge bar is taking the Dash ability level into account + some other physical attributes for the filling speed.

So, the more I dash, the more I increase my Dash Level, The quicker the bar would fill, even if the ability level shouldn't be the main factor for recharge speed.

Both kind of abilities would then cost Energy Points.

What do you think?
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Crush » 14 Oct 2009, 17:20

How exactly is your intended gameplay effect of this energy bar? Is it an anti sock-pooping device to make the player return to town every few hours or is it rather a resource the character can burn through in minutes when he tries to and recharge just as easy?

Regarding Bertrams idea with skill levels for abilities: This is not a good idea in my opinion. 1. The effect of spells already depends on the main skill level. 2. remember that the rune combination system means that there are millions(!) of possible spells. Do you want to keep track of all of them separately? 3. Spells already have a kind of level: the different effect rune tiers. Also having an additional level for each of them would be very confusing (btw: I would recommend a similar same-attack-with-different-tier concept for physical abilities) 4. I think our exp system is already complicated enough.
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Jaxad0127 » 14 Oct 2009, 17:31

Crush wrote:How exactly is your intended gameplay effect of this energy bar? Is it an anti sock-pooping device to make the player return to town every few hours or is it rather a resource the character can burn through in minutes when he tries to and recharge just as easy?
EP works like MP does on eAthena. I.E. always recharges (save for cases like encumbrance) and is drained when you use abilities. Different abilities require different amounts of EP.There should be ways to increase EP recovery, like sitting and potions.
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Crush » 14 Oct 2009, 17:37

Thanks, Jaxad, but this doesn't answer my question: What's the gameplay intention of this?
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Rotonen » 14 Oct 2009, 17:41

Bertram wrote:I fear cooking, or fishing couldn't come from Runes.
I suppose crafting skills wouldn't have specials in any case. If we want to be ah-so-creative we could allow a small skill boost from high level trade tools imbused with high level runes. This is tweaking fine details, so let's try to make everyone on the same page about the basics first.

I somehow feel there is a nice IRC session coming up one of these days.
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Jaxad0127 » 14 Oct 2009, 17:52

Crush wrote:Thanks, Jaxad, but this doesn't answer my question: What's the gameplay intention of this?
The same as MP is already.
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Crush » 14 Oct 2009, 18:05

Then it is redundant on TMWServ because the spell recharge system already does that.
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Bertram » 14 Oct 2009, 19:43

Hi there,

Good points so far:
Crush wrote:Then it [the EP] is redundant on TMWServ because the spell recharge system already does that.
:arrow: I think not because I was thinking of the [EP points need] x [Spell charged need] to be able to cast spells or use physical abilities.
If your character is tired, he won't be able to cast spells, even charged.

There is also an essential fact that we have a look upon:
The HP and EP shouldn't regenerate in every game area. What's the challenge entering dangerous zone and just waiting in a corner to get points back?
Crush wrote:Remember that the rune combination system means that there are millions(!) of possible spells
:arrow: That's true. Ok. No abilities track on runes. You're right, it would become nonsense.

On the contrary , I would keep ability levels and experience track (since abilities won't exist for magic, abilities left are only physical).
Rotonen wrote:I suppose crafting skills wouldn't have specials in any case.
:arrow: That's not true either ;), I only meant it shouldn't come from runes. [Create equipment] and [Identify] could be an ability coming from [Materials] Skill, for instance. (Even if I could have chosen a better example.)
Rotonen wrote:I somehow feel there is a nice IRC session coming up one of these days.
:arrow: I'd like to keep the main discussion written somewhere not as volatile. ;) That's why I'll keep on writing here.

What do you think?

Thanks for the constructive answers and best regards.
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Rotonen » 15 Oct 2009, 09:51

This fatigue thing will prove to be a very nice annoyance to the player. I thought we agreed on avoiding such concepts?
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Bertram » 15 Oct 2009, 10:20

Humm,

Do we at least agree about the fact that some area won't regenerate HP?

De we agree upon the fact that physical abilities have got an experience track
and use conditions said above instead of runes, which are kept for mana spells?

De we agree upon the fact that even crafting skills could get abilities?

If the Energy bar is annoying for the majority, I won't complain, but it's worth the try asking.

Regards.
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Re: [DIS] release1 level cap

Post by Crush » 15 Oct 2009, 17:05

Bertram wrote:Humm,

Do we at least agree about the fact that some area won't regenerate HP?
I am sceptical about this, but considering how few coding work it means (one additional map property and one line of code to check it) we can give it a try.
De we agree upon the fact that physical abilities have got an experience track
and use conditions said above instead of runes, which are kept for mana spells?
I will only say yes or no to a complete concept posted on the wiki, not one snippet of one without an idea how it works out in the big picture.
De we agree upon the fact that even crafting skills could get abilities?
My idea of crafting is a bit different: You have one general "craft" button which opens a window. You put the tools and materials into it and press OK. The rest (checking if it is a valid crafting formula,removing materials, calculating success, giving product, giving craft exp) is handled by the scripting engine on the server.

But I wouldn't rule out the possibility of additional "utility" abilities (like "identify") based on crafting skills.
If the Energy bar is annoying for the majority, I won't complain, but it's worth the try asking.
Although I believe that it doesn't make sense for magic I wouldn't rule out the possibility of an energy-point based physical attack ability system I would like. Again: Present a completely though out concept and I will say what I think about it.
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