Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders rights

All development of pixel art, maps and other graphics.
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var
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Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders rights

Post by var »

Now it's 6 days that i got no answers about my questions here http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 67#p124367

since it's not the appropriate place i put it in this thread.

This is not GPL -->> http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =8&t=10604 nobody can license it except the copyright holder, nobody gave me proofs that this rule http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 344#p11344 states that any posted art can be considered as contribution will.
Therefore a contribution will, does not and imply that what's posted will be licensed under the GPL.

So i consider the developers involved in the licensing of that art and the project itself guilty of copyrights infringement.
Also if i saw right that's not the first time that something is licensed against the copyright holder will.

Now using the way the rules are expressed here, that No answer means the acceptance of the guilty of copyrights infringement.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by Crush »

Moved from Court House to Graphics Development. The Court House is for ingame rules violation, not for discussing legal issues related to development.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by Crush »

The announcement on the Graphic Development board reads:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1177
Before posting any art contributions on this forum/website or any other communication interface which belongs to The Mana World project, you have to take under your consideration and accept the fact that any intellectual property donated to The Mana World is released under terms of GNU General Public License.

We do not accept anything released under proprietary licenses.

We also accept art contributions released under GPL-compatible licenses or from public domain. Posting a contribution on this forum/website/wiki (and other media that belongs to the project) means acceptation of the above rules unless explicitely stated otherwise.
This announcement has always been interpreted that anything posted on the forum is licensed under GNU GPL unless stated otherwise.



I am also curious why you are so eager to defend the copyrights of someone else who doesn't seem to care. When Arikel doesn't want TMW to use his art, he should just say so himself. I can't speak for the current content team, but back in my time we would have never used art against the expressed will of the author.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by var »

Crush wrote:The announcement on the Graphic Development board reads:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1177
Before posting any art contributions on this forum/website or any other communication interface which belongs to The Mana World project, you have to take under your consideration and accept the fact that any intellectual property donated to The Mana World is released under terms of GNU General Public License.

We do not accept anything released under proprietary licenses.

We also accept art contributions released under GPL-compatible licenses or from public domain. Posting a contribution on this forum/website/wiki (and other media that belongs to the project) means acceptation of the above rules unless explicitely stated otherwise.
This announcement has always been interpreted that anything posted on the forum is licensed under GNU GPL unless stated otherwise.

that's a Unconscionable contract of adhesion

--> http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... n+Contract

"they are so unfair to the weaker party that a court will refuse to enforce them"
but courts will be happy to enforce a copyright infrangment

Crush wrote:I am also curious why you are so eager to defend the copyrights of someone else who doesn't seem to care. When Arikel doesn't want TMW to use his art, he should just say so himself.
Crush please, dont make me laugh.. seems he cares http://opengameart.org/content/desert-cliffs-tileset
Arikel wrote: it wouldn't be the first of my works (in progress) that gets used by the manaworld without care for license, credit, or even my opinion.
...
So, it seems a bit weird to me that taking a piece of work from an author, using it and licensing it the way you like, would be a problem for the manaworld on this particular piece.
also i do also since i dont want to work with people that do copyrights infrengments.

Anyway, now you answer? after 6 days? really, i should do these things to get an answer? why did not you say that in that Thread instead of talking of subversioning? i am curious to know the why.

But yep, i already got that here in this project "the moon does exist only because a mouse is looking at it" it seems that the idea was to leave it disappear in the forum.
Well guys you got it wrong.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by Redshrike »

Dear TMW staff,
This is not how copyright works. If you want your game to be seriously open source and licensed properly, you have to get explicit permission from every copyright holder. Some sort of blanket statement about the forums doesn't cut it.
This is important, not just from a legal standpoint, but because you never want to get a reputation for using people's assets without permission. Many artists are already reluctant to release their art openly, and if they feel their trust has been abused they won't contribute again. That isn't just bad for TMW, but for the FOSS community as a whole. As it stands, Arikel is upset enough about this to comment on it over at Open Game Art, with sufficient vehemence to get at least some of us to check it out. It would probably be a good idea to get this sorted out before it becomes a thing.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by Frost »

When an entity uses your work improperly, it's standard practice to contact that entity and ask them to stop.
Let's hear what Arikel has to say.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by var »

Redshrike wrote:Dear TMW staff,
This is not how copyright works. If you want your game to be seriously open source and licensed properly, you have to get explicit permission from every copyright holder. Some sort of blanket statement about the forums doesn't cut it.
This is important, not just from a legal standpoint, but because you never want to get a reputation for using people's assets without permission. Many artists are already reluctant to release their art openly, and if they feel their trust has been abused they won't contribute again. That isn't just bad for TMW, but for the FOSS community as a whole. As it stands, Arikel is upset enough about this to comment on it over at Open Game Art, with sufficient vehemence to get at least some of us to check it out. It would probably be a good idea to get this sorted out before it becomes a thing.
Redstrike, finally, you got the point, at least i am not alone in this thing.
If you are wrong and you screw with contributors your project is screwed as well, and contributors are the gold of the projects, they must be treated well, not used as slaves.
Instead behave nicely and they will love to stay with you and contribute.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by Jenalya »

I already sent a pm to arikel to ask him wether he intended the art from this topic http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... =8&t=10604 to be used by tmw and if it's released under the GPL.
Since I joined this project after arikel became inactive, I don't know the backgrounds of his frustration about the project regarding licences or about this art specifically. In that forum topic there isn't anything said about the license, and as far as I know arikel was a regular tmw contributor back then, which is why the topic looks to me as if intended as contribution to tmw.

To clear things up we'll need arikel's input on this. If it isn't GPL, we're going to remove it.
var wrote: If you are wrong and you screw with contributors your project is screwed as well, and contributors are the gold of the projects, they must be treated well, not used as slaves.
Instead behave nicely and they will love to stay with you and contribute.
I agree with you on this, and please remember, we're all contributors. So, acting on this topic less aggressively would certainly help to avoid needless frustrations and hurt feelings.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by var »

Jenalya wrote:
var wrote: If you are wrong and you screw with contributors your project is screwed as well, and contributors are the gold of the projects, they must be treated well, not used as slaves.
Instead behave nicely and they will love to stay with you and contribute.
I agree with you on this, and please remember, we're all contributors. So, acting on this topic less aggressively would certainly help to avoid needless frustrations and hurt feelings.
I'm not aggressive, i asked, i got no answers, i got no PM, i got nothing, i got one PM today, the 1st one and from someone that does not belong to the Dev team.
You were not a contributor at that time, i wasn't as well.

I find out, i asked, i got no answers after yours. You might don't know, and with this i am agree.
We could fix this privately, i saw no will, so it went public and that's due to lacks of comunication, was it that hard to send me a PM? that should be a good practice of a developement team.

I don't believe that nobody read my post of some days ago and nobody even cared to reply or PM.
I'm not the one that had to do PMs, i already pointed out my position, no answers and PM implied that i forced it public.

Also i'm no longer considering myself as a contributor of this project, i don't like the way things are managed, expecially the "you post, we license" thing and the no PM thing, as i already widely explained.

Now it's public and stays public, so this project will be forced to fix it.

I don't accept jokes when it comes of people rights.
I also don't accept to be kidded, the team saw my post, it just went into the ignore thing.

I'm not used to act in this way, people that know me knows that.
I contributed in other projects and i never saw these things, there always have been a lot of comunication.

I already expressed my perplexity here https://trello.com/card/huagal-mob/4ea7 ... 00497e/108 about taking art in that way.
I thought well the guy might don't care or he might want it GPL so it could be GPL or stated it as GPL in other comunication channels.

Could... it was my bad, i had to check this project better that time.

So,
Bye.

edit: fixed the link to trello.
Last edited by var on 31 May 2012, 18:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by o11c »

var wrote:that's a Unconscionable contract of adhesion

--> http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... n+Contract

"they are so unfair to the weaker party that a court will refuse to enforce them"
but courts will be happy to enforce a copyright infrangment
That is not applicable in the case of this forum rule:
1. There are plenty of places to get image hosting, this forum is not for that.
2. If you are posted with the intent of contributing to the game, it is quite reasonable that you be familiar with the license requirements of the game.
3. If a piece of art is *not* available under the GPL (typically because it's inspiration made by someone else), you can still explicitly state that.

That said, it might be a good idea to have an open-access forum group that you have to be in to post in any of the development forums; the only requirement for joining this group would be that you explicitly post your understanding and acceptance of the GPL (perhaps in an "intro to development" group, that would also minimize the entry barrier and allow the separation of "ideas" from concrete development).
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by var »

o11c wrote:
var wrote:that's a Unconscionable contract of adhesion

--> http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictiona ... n+Contract

"they are so unfair to the weaker party that a court will refuse to enforce them"
but courts will be happy to enforce a copyright infrangment
That is not applicable in the case of this forum rule:
1. There are plenty of places to get image hosting, this forum is not for that.
2. If you are posted with the intent of contributing to the game, it is quite reasonable that you be familiar with the license requirements of the game.
3. If a piece of art is *not* available under the GPL (typically because it's inspiration made by someone else), you can still explicitly state that.
You are warmly invited to try that in a court.

Moreover, how about --> Arikel is a person and might be pissed off since nobody cared to ask him anything?
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by Big Crunch »

varuna i'm sad to see you so aggressively pursuing this. Even though i havent seen you for a while ingame, i still consider you a friend.

1. Regarding the submission of work to the forums and the assumption of ownership. Many many organizations do this type of thing. Twitter, Facebook, etc. I dont find it odd in the least that TMW would assume ownership of something in this manner. Anytime you submit a video, tweet, picture, song etc, the organization you send it to explicitly says that any submitted material becomes the property of said organization. Whether you find this practice distasteful is a different matter.

2. If Arikel doesnt want his work used, he needs but ask for it not to be used. My first point, while still relevant, would, i'm certain be waived if he asks that his work not be used. Creating this sort of ill will is counterproductive to all involved.

Lets remember that everyone volunteers here, and generally has no ill will toward one another. I know that Jenalya wouldnt include something out of spite or malice, and she is at this point, the final say regarding what gets used or not. Please, lets not bring old wounds and past slights into the present. Many, if not most of the current developers have no idea what has gone on in the past, and it is best that way. You can never move forward without releasing the past.

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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by Redshrike »

I think it's clear how somebody could have inferred, in good faith, that the assets were meant to be GPL'ed. But I think it's also important to realize that licenses don't work on inference. Everything needs to be absolutely explicit.
A simple way to do that might be a rule saying that, for any of your work to be used ingame, you have to c/p some text to the effect of "I affirm that this is my work and release this work under the GNU public license." That way you are free from ambiguities, and nobody can come back later and say that they didn't know what was happening, because they posted it themselves.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by o11c »

Redshrike wrote:I think it's clear how somebody could have inferred, in good faith, that the assets were meant to be GPL'ed. But I think it's also important to realize that licenses don't work on inference. Everything needs to be absolutely explicit.
A simple way to do that might be a rule saying that, for any of your work to be used ingame, you have to c/p some text to the effect of "I affirm that this is my work and release this work under the GNU public license." That way you are free from ambiguities, and nobody can come back later and say that they didn't know what was happening, because they posted it themselves.
That would be an improvement, but it's stronger than an inference.

This forum is exclusively for the development of art intended to go in the game. Any other use is violation of this website's ToS.

No court in the world would accept "I violated this website's ToS and then got mad because they used my submitted content as if I were following the ToS."

Random side note: the GPL does not require adding attribution *unless* the work already contains a form of attribution, in which case it is forbidden to remove it. And of course, the whole point of the GPL is that the author can't specify *how* the art is used in the game.
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Re: Art licensing and usage against the copyright holders ri

Post by mistergrey »

var, you seem kind of determined to continue answering negatively here, despite Jenalya's willingness to remove Arikel's art if he wishes, and I don't quite see why. As well, if Arikel was so upset by this he is bringing it up elsewhere, why did he not bother coming here and simply stating that he never intended that art for tmw? (I don't ask this to argue, I'm really confused that he has not yet done this, if he's that upset).

I saw the topic you posted before, but as I have no particular say on tmw's art content, I did not reply. Still, I don't see a point to this continuing to be negative, considering it has been clearly stated that if he wishes certain art to not be used here, under a GPL license, he only had to explicitly say so to have it removed. At this point, all that's left is to argue about is everyone's take on what the wording of the forum's contribution rule means, and this is easy for everyone to take differently, if they want to twist words. The simplest take on it, and the one used AFAIK, is "If you post art here, it will be considered to be under a GPL license, unless it is explicitly stated that it is not, or is not meant for use in tmw."

Quite honestly, I don't believe any art should be used against any artist's wishes, but on the same line of thought, artists should be clear about what they post on the forums here, as well. Perhaps a change to the rule would be in order, as this does seem confusing, but once again that is not something I can decide.
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