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#156088 by Tirifto
Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:22 pm
Hello!

In this one thread, it is stated on behalf of the project: “We believe in free as in freedom.” I'd like to know whether that still holds true for the project, under the current leadership.

It's been strongly implied (if not outright stated) over here that freedom is not an important concept to the project, and that free (as in freedom) tools and licenses are being used for their convenience, not their freedom. This is in contrast with the statement above.

If it is true, then please remove any claims like: “We believe in free as in freedom”, because they are misleading. However, if you do believe in free as in freedom, then please don't say otherwise on behalf of the project, and be more welcoming and supportive of free tools in place of non-free ones. (This concerns the project's values, not individuals' personal beliefs.)

EDIT: concert → concept* | used → being* used
#156089 by WildX
Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:26 pm
It's still possible to believe in freedom while using proprietary software. I would say I believe in freedom, but my definition of "freedom" would probably be very different from yours. I would argue that right to property and its derivatives such as copyright are essential elements of a free society. My idea of freedom involves free association and contractual agreements, this is in line with "free as in freedom" as opposed to "free as in given without charge".

This is just my opinion, I don't speak for everyone. I also realise my political views in general are probably in the minority around here, which is totally fine, I like diversity.
#156091 by Tirifto
Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:28 pm
WildX wrote:It's still possible to believe in freedom while using proprietary software. I would say I believe in freedom, but my definition of "freedom" would probably be very different from yours. […]

In the context of software, “free as in freedom” (as often used and popularized by the FSF) is commonly connected with free software (as coined by RMS) and the related ideas. This case is – by far – no exception, and is only strengthened by the statement being followed by links to free licenses and even the very definition I link to here. That makes it very clear which idea of “freedom” the statement concerns. (And officially promoted belief in this idea warrants its pursuit, not indifference to it.)
#156095 by Amarynthus
Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:40 am
I cannot speak for anyone affiliated with this project - I just play the game. But as you opened a thread asking for opinions ... I have plenty of those.

I agree that the phrase "free as in freedom" has been claimed by Stallman and the FSF. There is no reason, however, that anyone else need respect that claim. It is complete and utter crap. I find Stallman and the FSF morally objectionable and their dictatorial claim on language is absurd. I can use the phrase "free as in freedom" all I want without implying anything about adherence to FSFs standards ... guess what, I'm free to do so.

What really get's me is the hypocrisy of imposing one's own views on others and demanding that other people change what they do in the name of "freedom". Don't get me wrong, you can argue what you wish, and you can define "freedom" however you want, but don't get your panties in a bunch if everyone else on the planet doesn't bow to the great Lord Stallman and do as you demand. That's not how the world works.

I do think one should avoid intentional misrepresentation. So if anywhere on this projects website(s) there is a claim that all tools affiliated with all aspects of this project conform fully to the standards put forth by the FSF, then those claims would be dishonest and they should be removed. Do such claims exist? If on the other hand, parts of this website just use the word "freedom" in a manner that doesn't fit your own personal (and I'd say very warped) definition of freedom ... well, then too bad.

[Note: this post uses a bit of intentional hyperbole. I do respect your views on FSF-endorsed software even though I don't share them. I however, do take significant issue with the moral superiority flaunted by those who claim anyone who doesn't agree with them must be "against freedom". While they're at it the the FSF may as well accuse me of killing babies and destroying the rainforest with my software.]
#156096 by Tirifto
Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:21 pm
Amarynthus wrote:I cannot speak for anyone affiliated with this project - I just play the game. But as you opened a thread asking for opinions […]

I did not ask for opinions. I just want to bring the developers' attention to an issue and have it resolved.
Amarynthus wrote:[…] So if anywhere on this projects website(s) there is a claim that all tools affiliated with all aspects of this project conform fully to the standards put forth by the FSF, then those claims would be dishonest and they should be removed. Do such claims exist? […]

It's being stated that the project “believes in free as in freedom”, with the meaning of that defined both implicitly and explicitly. Some recent statements and approach to free software in the project say the opposite. That's what this thread is about.
#156097 by Amarynthus
Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:32 pm
Tirifto wrote:It's being stated that the project “believes in free as in freedom”, with the meaning of that defined both implicitly and explicitly.

Please provide a link to where it is defined explicitly on one of this projects websites to mean in line with FSF standards.

The "implicit" definition is based entirely on your own bias and commitment to the FSF agenda. Not everyone else shares that agenda.

So again, if it actually is explicitly stated, I'd completely agree with you that something needs to be changed. But if the only incongruity is due to your own internal interpretation of the word freedom in contrast to all dictionary definitions of the word, then no one esle can really be expected to help you.
#156098 by Tirifto
Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:33 pm
Amarynthus wrote:Please provide a link to where it is defined explicitly on one of this projects websites to mean in line with FSF standards.

I have; there's a link to GNU's philosophy and definition right below the statement, on this page.
Amarynthus wrote:The "implicit" definition is based entirely on your own bias and commitment to the FSF agenda. Not everyone else shares that agenda.

I can see the implication because I've seen the term “free as in freedom” used in other projects and communities related to free software. It's very common for them to use this definition. With TMW as one of those projects (and communities), it's not unreasonable for one to assume such meaning, regardless of their personal beliefs.
#156099 by WildX
Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:21 pm
I have removed the mention of "free as in freedom". Hopefully this can avoid any further conflicts. The project remains generally liberal and Open Source.
#156100 by Tirifto
Sat Jul 15, 2017 2:42 pm
WildX wrote:I have removed the mention of "free as in freedom". Hopefully this can avoid any further conflicts. The project remains generally liberal and Open Source.

Thank you; that resolves the issue. I will notify you if I find anything similar. The project now feels more honest, and I'm glad for that.
#156101 by 4144
Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:15 pm
WildX wrote:I have removed the mention of "free as in freedom". Hopefully this can avoid any further conflicts. The project remains generally liberal and Open Source.

Wildx actually you not have rights to change how project works.
Better leave it as before your changes.
#156107 by WildX
Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:49 pm
4144 wrote:
WildX wrote:I have removed the mention of "free as in freedom". Hopefully this can avoid any further conflicts. The project remains generally liberal and Open Source.

Wildx actually you not have rights to change how project works.
Better leave it as before your changes.

My whole point is that it changes nothing of how the project works. It's just something that most people overlook and nobody in the team cares enough about to even address this thread. I changed nothing. That's exactly what I was trying to prove.
Pawneeboy wrote:Dum dum dum, someone's in trouble

Bad boys bad boys whatcha gonna do when they come for you
#156108 by Amarynthus
Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:01 pm
Well this is getting odd. Now some are giving the suggestion that a committment to the FSF-definition of "free as in freedom" does exist - yet the current practice doesn't fit that.

As much as I disagree with Trifto's goal of making all software everywhere fit the FSF's guidelines (which, by the way, requires all content creators must allow the FSF to claim ownership of all their content) ... anyhow, as much as I disagree with those goals, I'd support an argument that one's actions should match their words.

There is, however, still an ambiguity whenever one claims they "believe in free as in freedom". It's like someone saying they believe in world peace. First, one can believe whatever they want - that doesn't make it a reality; but second, and more importantly, a "belief" in world peace is a vacuous claim that says nothing about any committment of that person to acheiving world peace. It's hard to say their belief in world peace is dishonest simply because they bought a product from a company, a portion of whose profits go to support a political party, who among other things have tolerated the presence of a regime in another nation that has mistreated it's people. No one (sane) says "how can you believe in world peace and still buy milk from that corner store." Yet people say "how can you believe in free software and still use translations generated by non-free software".

Now if there was a boycot on that particular corner store, and someone signed on to a pledge document that they would refuse to shop there until some political change was met - if they signed such a document and then shopped there, then they'd be accountable. They made a specific committment to not buy their milk there, then they did it anyways. If this project makes any specific commitment to not reap the benefits of any non-free software, then the translation software should change. But I've not yet seen such a specific commitment, only the ambiguous "belief in" something.

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