Botting while not AFK

Got something on your mind about the project? This is the correct place for that.
Forum rules
This forum is for feature requests, content changes additions, anything not a Bug in the software.
Please report all bugs on the Support Forums
User avatar
SpeedDuck
Peon
Peon
Posts: 51
Joined: 09 Jan 2019, 23:20

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by SpeedDuck »

Sounds very similar to the TMW2 Hurnscald/Tulimshar connection!
Join the Duck Side!

SpeedDuck -> dangerDuck -> TinyToes -> Vladimir Putin -> LeggoLass -> Calithildor_Elderon
User avatar
jesusalva
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 445
Joined: 14 Nov 2016, 23:20
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by jesusalva »

SpeedDuck wrote: 08 May 2020, 18:08 Sounds very similar to the TMW2 Hurnscald/Tulimshar connection!
Of course, Moubootaur Legends landbridge was designed with TMW's original one in mind.
Jesusalva (aka. Jesusaves)
User avatar
Omid.O
Newly Registered User
Posts: 9
Joined: 27 Feb 2012, 00:12

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Omid.O »

The phenomenon of online gaming has certainly changed the world of gaming and botting or any other form of cheating has always been a problem associated with it. Being one of the older MMORPG's, TMW has had its share of issues over the years too; one of which is the problem of players who try to outsmart others and bot their way to success.

I'm completely against any form of botting or non-human activity, including the simplest of automation tools apart from the boundaries of the default game client.

Firstly, it's clear that such techniques are wrong everywhere around the gaming world and most online games prohibit any sort of botting or automation.
Even the simplest bots allow the botting(in other words the cheating) player to go as far and as fast in the game as top and hardworking players, without having to spend as much dedicated time and energy. As a result, they can outperform others in events, PVP and they get all the drops. They also tend to break a game's economy by having far more resources and items than the majority of other players (tell me if I'm wrong and if it's normal to get FOUR enchanter's amulets in a single week)

Secondly, with some players freely use such unfair approaches to hasten their progression in the game, others who lack the skills to bot or are unwilling to play that way will pay the price.
How can botting be allowed while multi-boxing being against the rules? By introducing such rules, you are officially giving those players who are more skilled in computers a green light to exploit others, which might alienate other players in the long run.
I do understand that detecting multi-boxing is as simple as looking at a list of IP's while it's harder to detect non-player activity, but speaking of the game rules, saying that we can't detect Botting, and saying that AFK Botting is ok and tolerated should be understood as distinct; one is not the same as the other.

I'm also aware of the fact that my view might outrage botters who mostly happen to be among higher level players, nevertheless, we should always think about those innocent and honest players who are here to play a game and enjoy the experience.

With that being said, I ask our great GM's and developers to change this rule or remove the word "allowed" from it, because it doesn't serve the interests of the majority of players and the game itself.

Edit: the point I'm trying to make is a suggestion to change this rule, even though there might be impossible to detect non-afk botting and I'm not criticizing or judging our GM team.

Last edited by Omid.O on 08 Jun 2020, 00:19, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
prsm
Game Master
Game Master
Posts: 1518
Joined: 24 Mar 2009, 18:18

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by prsm »

I am a Gm!
When i check on people botting, I need to ask questions to see if that person is botting.
If they answer, I assume (since i have way to know other wise), that they are not botting.

If you want me to perform some kind of Jedi mind meld on them, I will, But you need
to teach me the skill!

I work with what i have .......

Jedi mind melds are not in my skill set.

Code: Select all

           Prsm
ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
User avatar
prsm
Game Master
Game Master
Posts: 1518
Joined: 24 Mar 2009, 18:18

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by prsm »

so once again, i erred!
Apparently Jedi do mind tricks and Vulcans do mind melds.

That being said ....... If you want my skill set to improve, tell me how to improve it.

Don't just tell me what I am doing is wrong.

ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
User avatar
WildX
Development Producer
Development Producer
Posts: 1601
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 15:13
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by WildX »

I think it cheapens the rules to have in them things that, as Prsm pointed out, cannot be enforced properly. I agree with the sentiment, but we can only restrict what we can detect.

These are not the bots you're looking for.

User avatar
jesusalva
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 445
Joined: 14 Nov 2016, 23:20
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by jesusalva »

For the record, the "allowed bots" are more like macros.

If you leave a bot software running while you go drink a coffee, and a GM go talk to you...

...You will not respond in time (or reply in a way that suggests the use of an automation) and will be banned (or have the char wiped clean)

The simplest macros are simple keyboard auto-pressers. ManaPlus already comes with a very simple protection against AFK botting, so if you start the macro and vanish, M+ will eventually notice you are no longer at keyboard and will gracefully stop the macro for you.
(Will prevent a ban but not death).

Of course, if you fool ManaPlus and a GM catch you. You most likely lost the char. Anyway.

Even the simplest bots allow the botting(in other words the cheating) player to go as far and as fast in the game as top and hardworking players, without having to spend as much dedicated time and energy. As a result, they can outperform others in events, PVP and they get all the drops. They also tend to break a game's economy by having far more resources and items than the majority of other players (tell me if I'm wrong and if it's normal to get FOUR enchanter's amulets in a single week)

Not really. A macro (which is allowed, up to a bot form) can increase your performance in about... 40%? From what I've seen. (For the record, in Moubootaur Legends, the performance increase is almost null, because you can only bot at weaker mobs or you die and lose exp. rEvolt has exp loss on death, WAY less than ML but it is still there, along exp/drop corrections and some balancing. So a part of the reason why bots outperform non-bot users is a TMWA bug.)

Getting FOUR enchanter's Amulet in a single week? Oh my, what did you sacrifice to RNG?? O.o
RNG is usually against players, not at their favor xD

Someone botting can outperform someone not botting, mostly because they won't get tired of pressing keys and can dedicate more time to playing (as they can work in parallel).
Of course, they still need a sharp eye on the screen for Prsm (or any GM).
Unlike Moubootaur Legends, TMW is very strict on AFK botting.

PS. Multiboxing versus AFK Botting:
Multiboxing is about 2x more efficient than AFK Botting (in EXP terms).
AFK Botting is more efficient collecting loot.

Jesusalva (aka. Jesusaves)
User avatar
Ledmitz
Developer
Developer
Posts: 334
Joined: 17 Aug 2011, 23:40
Contact:

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Ledmitz »

Yes... What Jesusalva said. Besides that, botting allowed or not allowed means nothing to me when my fingers and arm start seizing up from holding X. Any weight on X can be called a bot as Gumi pointed out with an elastic trick on a joypad in another post. No one will prevent me form feeling comfortable, but I know I have to be here at the keyboard. The autostop attack that the client has can help prevent a bad situation, like nodding off at the PC or an emergency situation happens and bot not turned off. We don't need to tell people they are allowed to use automation in the rules, as long as we aren't persecuting people that are not AFK. Botters, not AFK, do not have an advantage other than comfort. It's the opposite as you must be able to survive too.

It makes sense in arcade and strategy and online shooters to not use automation of any kind as the game relates greatly to the hand-eye coordination of the player. This isn't the case in an RPG like TMW. I do wish people that made bots would put a bit more work into them though, to avoid seeing characters not be able to decide whether to get the loot or fight the mobs. It can look a bit stupid, but hey.... who really cares about that if they're at the keyboard?

Ledmitz = Mystic = Mystical_Servant = Ardits = BoomBoom = KillerBee
User avatar
Livio
Novice
Novice
Posts: 230
Joined: 26 Feb 2019, 20:08

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Livio »

If someone of you still remembers my draft seems that nobody told something about bot owner being online or offline. However I believe that everything reported in rules from A1 to A3 seems alright to me.

From viewtopic.php?f=20&t=20882
A1) Follow players rules first
A2) No AFK activity is allowed that has an effect on gameplay helping the player to progress in a non-monetarily way
A2a) Gaining exp
A2b) Gaining items from drops or questing (no farming / hunting allowed)
A2c) Assisting in combat by fighting or healing or influencing any player's status, etc...
A3) Automatic player following is not allowed

In my opinion nothing like that have to happen not to unbalance game or make players mad at bots regardless of bot owner being AFK or not. Being playing for hours, getting tired and see a bot that makes his owner stronger and wealthy than you is surely not pleasant for everyone. This should be a game that makes people having good times playing and getting along together instead of arguing and hating profit machines.

User avatar
jesusalva
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 445
Joined: 14 Nov 2016, 23:20
Location: Brazil
Contact:

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by jesusalva »

https://policies.themanaworld.org/game-rules

Rule number 1:

Do not AFK bot
This means you are not allowed to perform any AFK (away from keyboard) activity, apart from standing idle.

Obviously this doesn't relates at all with software which are not using your account (eg. Liviobot), so there are more of an admin/GM decision than anything else.

Which is also pretty discretionary, if it is harmless they won't mind, if it is annoying they'll call you, if it is harmful they'll ban it; Won't bother making a huge list which I'll never consult.

The rules you mentioned, Livio, are good etiquete for this specific kind of bots, which could be banned by both ADMINs and GMs. (ADMs do not ban players, but they zeal for server health, which means purging unmanned bots - mostly spambots)

The discussion here are about bots running on your account (which are usually more like macros than bots). They are allowed to fight, to heal, to follow, to loot, (to chat, to emote...) -- in other words, they are automatizations to make your gameplay experience smoother.

The most notorious example are the simple keyboard pressers, available for nearly every OS.

Needless to say, these respond directly as you. If you make other people gameplay experience worse, we will call Rule 7 and ban YOU: The account running the bot and any relevant alts.
Because the discussion is about YOUR use of a bot/macro/script. They are supposed to be running with you at the keyboard, and are 100% under you. (Such rarely/never allow remote commands.)

And of course, for this kind of macro-level bots, GMs are responsible for banning.

They are very distinct each other, so please do not try to compare them.

PS. Lack of sleep, I'll review this text tomorrow. (If I remember).

Jesusalva (aka. Jesusaves)
User avatar
Livio
Novice
Novice
Posts: 230
Joined: 26 Feb 2019, 20:08

Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Livio »

Thank you Jesusalva. Things are more clear now.
I didn't got the difference between using the bot account or the player account for botting.
That means I should improve draft even more but I'm not into that tonight.

I've just finished recycling solder from old circuits and (de)soldering tools and got so excited about this that I wasn't aware of time passing. (Now I can make a small homemade crucible out of aluminum foil to plate wires).
Dammit we must sleep, rest, and sometimes fight laziness as well.
Only bots can stay awake 24/7, sadly we are made of puny meat and we are inferior to machines in term of online availability.
Whatever we do we must not push ourselves too hard.

Post Reply