Splash damage changes

[Crush]

Problems found so far:

1) Griefing potential

Possible solutions:

• Remove monsters from towns
• Limit splash attacking of non-agressive monsters to players which interacted with the combat in some way (attacked the monster too or cast beneficial spells on attackers). Having agressive monsters ignore targets they can attack is implausible, in my opinion. When you are in an area with agressive monsters, you should always keep your guard up.

2) It discourages healing, because the healer has to keep distance

Possible solutions:

• Reduce range penalty of healing so that the healer can stay out of the danger zone

[Crush]

There used to be two threads about the splash damage changes, one in Feedback and one in Content Development.

I merged them into one in Feedback.

[Big Crunch]

Problems found so far:

1) Griefing potential

Possible solutions:

• Remove monsters from towns
• Limit splash attacking of non-agressive monsters to players which interacted with the combat in some way (attacked the monster too or cast beneficial spells on attackers). Having agressive monsters ignore targets they can attack is implausible, in my opinion. When you are in an area with agressive monsters, you should always keep your guard up.

2) It discourages healing, because the healer has to keep distance

Possible solutions:

• Reduce range penalty of healing so that the healer can stay out of the danger zone

just increasing the healing range wont help much. As it is now, it is impossible for an archer or mage to even walk through the graveyard if someone is fighting in the the narrower parts.

As i've said already, the most logical solution is to assign splash damage to monsters that use attacks other than purely physical. Skulls, mushrooms, fire and ice goblins, the light balls (which use a bash style attack, but as they are balls of light one can assume that they are using some kind of magic effect), ice elements, jacko (would be fun to make him even more powerful), etc. I'm sure i've missed some, but you get the idea. Then if you block off the 'freezer' area of the graveyard, you will force the skulls back into play there. Its a win/win. The graveyard gets more difficult, or at least back to the level it was intended, therefore splash attacks are more prevalent, yet more logically assigned.

BC

[Chicka-Maria]

The only thing im concerned with big crunches comment is the ice elements, its difficult enough for archers to get to cindy without a warrior to help bring them there. Plus they also do a bash attack, wouldn't make sense for it to splash. But as i said i do agree with his comment about splash attack being adjusted and possible the damage amount being adjusted to something lower as well.

Regards,

[Crush]

just increasing the healing range wont help much. As it is now, it is impossible for an archer or mage to even walk through the graveyard if someone is fighting in the the narrower parts.

As i've said already, the most logical solution is to assign splash damage to monsters that use attacks other than purely physical.

That might be logical, but not a solution to the problem, because the problem would still persist with those monsters which still have splash attacks.

But is this really a problem? Can't they wait until the warrior is out of the way?

[Eldrazi]

i just edited some illustration.
splash damage had unlimited chain reaction, this is bad.

do not splash damage at town

[Big Crunch]

That might be logical, but not a solution to the problem, because the problem would still persist with those monsters which still have splash attacks.

But is this really a problem? Can't they wait until the warrior is out of the way?

In theory but there is a bottle neck just as you approach the statue in the center, where if a solo warrior is there, nine times out of ten, they cannot dispatch the monsters fast enough to actually advance. Considering the monsters that are there are melee types, it would allow the mage or archer to heal the warrior and/or advance through.

The issue with the splash type monsters would persist, but in order to implement change for the better, some difficulties are acceptable. My concern is with EVERY monster dealing splash damage. A mage could time his movement to move through a single attacking splash damage monster, but not more unless somehow all the monsters attacks are synchronized.

[Big Crunch]

The only thing im concerned with big crunches comment is the ice elements, its difficult enough for archers to get to cindy without a warrior to help bring them there. Plus they also do a bash attack, wouldn't make sense for it to splash. But as i said i do agree with his comment about splash attack being adjusted and possible the damage amount being adjusted to something lower as well.

Regards,

I'm assuming the damage from an ice element is actually Cold damage rather than bash damage, but whatever, you get the point.

[ZdlN]

• Reduce range penalty of healing so that the healer can stay out of the danger zone

It's as easyer to say as to do ... if the mage run away from the warrior he is a good target for the next monster...
So the mage so run away every time - from warrior and from monster - it is not good to regenerate mana ... Healing on the other hand is more needed because more damage the monsters make to the group...

[Crush]

It's as easyer to say as to do ... if the mage run away from the warrior he is a good target for the next monster...
So the mage so run away every time - from warrior and from monster -

That was the whole point of the introduction of splash damage: to make character positioning more tactically challenging. Parties now have to watch their formation to make sure that healers are shielded from monsters.

[ZdlN]

Formation with one warrior? Or two?
I think splah constrain helping other players - cause nobody can leave position, not the warrior to help other lowlevel warrior, not a mage want heal an player aside the formation - and this is against one of the basments of tmw ~helping~.

[Frost]

So far, I have tried several classic "min/max stat" builds with splash damage.

Raging warrior in graveyard: I needed mage healing more than ever, until I learned to stand away from other warriors. Basically, don't stack.

Tank warrior in graveyard: I took slightly more damage than usual, but the non-tanks around me were really sweating it. Betsanc helped, of course. As tank, I rather like splash damage.

Speed mage/healer in graveyard: Using lightning, I attacked from range with no problem. I had plenty of range to heal without being "involved" in the damage. I was fine at the crypt area with a few warriors and an archer. Better than usual healing opportunities. Overall, more challenging and better XP from healing.

Tanked mage in graveyard: No problem at all; I was already prepared to take some hits. Better healing opportunities, and other chars appreciated it.
Tanked mage at Cindy: I couldn't see any difference, maybe because people didn't stack much.
Tanked mage at Candor: This required a change in tactics, but then it seemed okay.

Mallet Eye "suicide" archer in graveyard: I had to remember to stay away from the warriors, but otherwise it wasn't much different. I can't heal in the middle of combat; warriors must run to me for healing.

Speed "suicide" archer in graveyard: I had to really keep moving to stay clear of the warrior-pile. I also couldn't effectively heal warriors. This was a huge change for my playing style, and by far the most difficult for me.
I assume combat would be much more difficult for a new player who doesn't have the same knowledge of TMW tactics.

Mages and archers with low defense really do get bottled up in parts of the graveyard, as others have noted. This, and avoiding stacks with other warriors, are the two largest changes to my personal style of play.

Please note that the above is merely my personal experience to add to the discussion. It is not intended to convince others.

[mistergrey]

Reading through this topic, I've pretty much seen this:

- Some warriors feel that tanks are more screwed over by splash damage.
- Mages/Archers are often too weak (vitality wise) to survive narrow areas with many monsters.
- Healers get hugely shafted, though there is also much more opportunity to heal others.
- All monsters having splash damage is both illogical and makes them rather more difficult than before.
- Helping lower level players level up is Much harder when monsters can hit every player attacking them.

My thoughts:

- Tanks have more purpose than before, and are needed to help others survive often.
- With more teamwork, mages and archers can do well, plus they still have the damage advantage (nothing prevents them from using more vitality or armor, beside need for more damage).
- Healing range could be increased, but personally I think that is unnecessary, unless ALL monsters will keep splash damage (I hope not, lol).
- Big Crunch had the right idea: pick the monsters that have an attack that makes sense with splash damage, and perhaps a couple of extras so most big monster traffic areas have a splash mob or two for extra challenge.
- Helping new players is still possible, but the ways in which people do so probably need a change regardless of splash damage. Leveling a new player by attacking a wisp/specter/poltergeist once, and letting them kill it while you take the aggro is not a very challenging or involved way to help. If anything, it is tedious "tricks" like these that makes potential new players say "this game looks like a boring grindfest, I'm outta here!".

tl;dr - Splash damage on all monsters makes it harder for everyone, but if the effect can/will be limited to a few monsters, this should work out great.

[Chicka-Maria]

- Tanks have more purpose than before, and are needed to help others survive often.
- With more teamwork, mages and archers can do well, plus they still have the damage advantage (nothing prevents them from using more vitality or armor, beside need for more damage).
- Healing range could be increased, but personally I think that is unnecessary, unless ALL monsters will keep splash damage (I hope not, lol).
- Helping new players is still possible, but the ways in which people do so probably need a change regardless of splash damage. Leveling a new player by attacking a wisp/specter/poltergeist once, and letting them kill it while you take the aggro is not a very challenging or involved way to help. If anything, it is tedious "tricks" like these that makes potential new players say "this game looks like a boring grindfest, I'm outta here!".

tl;dr - Splash damage on all monsters makes it harder for everyone, but if the effect can/will be limited to a few monsters, this should work out great.

I dont think tanks would have more purpose than before, Before tanks would take away monsters from other plays and tank at cindys and candors. Now they cant do that and theres no purpose of "tanking" for friends since they will be hit anyway lol. And helping others by letting them hit wisps might not be as challenging as going out and spending days/weeks on end to get to level 40. But its easier and less stressful for the players especially since its unbalanced clearly..Its nice how players engage with newbies by helping them level and helping them tanking with quests you cant do that now.

Regards,

[o11c]

To those asking for splash-damage to be made per-monster:
I implemented it this way because any other way would be difficult; this way was easy.

Problems found so far:

1) Griefing potential

Possible solutions:

• Remove monsters from towns
• Limit splash attacking of non-agressive monsters to players which interacted with the combat in some way (attacked the monster too or cast beneficial spells on attackers). Having agressive monsters ignore targets they can attack is implausible, in my opinion. When you are in an area with agressive monsters, you should always keep your guard up.

Will fix - I could disable it if the map has the "town" flag, or only enable it if the monster is aggressive. (Edit: this would have problems)
Edit: This is on the test server.

2) It discourages healing, because the healer has to keep distance

Possible solutions:

• Reduce range penalty of healing so that the healer can stay out of the danger zone

I've thought about this before - but a maxed healer can heal with a radius that is approximately Line of Sight.
So are you talking about a low level healer, an armored healer, or a mixed class healer?

Easy to implement the fix; hard to find the right numbers.

i just edited some illustration.
splash damage had unlimited chain reaction, this is bad.

No, it doesn't.