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Doofus
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Support

Post by Doofus »

Ok I know I am far too late for this having been away for a while but I noticed in the news that support was to be dropped in April 2012 for the 0.0.29 client.

I'd like to voice my objection as I do not believe it is responsible to drop support when you have packaged for distributions with the commitment that you will provide support for the supported lifetime of that distribution. E.g. the stable branch of debian only has 0.0.29 in the repositories. This branch will likely remain the stable branch for the rest of the year. Ubuntu 10.04 is similarly expected to be supported until into 2013.

I can even remember making bug reports 18 months ago only to be told that a new client was coming out and applying fixes to the old one is not a priority.

If you have officially dropped support for 0.0.29 then these packages must be considered orphaned and be marked as such in debian/ubuntu and other repositories.

I can understand that developers get overexcited when the newest latest libraries come out, but most people don't have as cutting edge a system as a software developer and one needs to consider reverse compatibility and ensuring backports exist when a project is rapidly moving in order to ensure its long-term stability.
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o11c
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Re: Support

Post by o11c »

We don't supply packages (except for Windows and Mac); distributions do.

It is their responsibility to check whether the packages are outdated, and set a policy of when they may be updated in older versions.
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Frost
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Re: Support

Post by Frost »

o11c wrote:It is their responsibility to check whether the packages are outdated, and set a policy of when they may be updated in older versions.
This is precisely how packages get orphaned.

I think that TMW has a clear interest and even an obligation to communicate and cooperate with distributions, if we wish the software to be included and maintained. To say it's entirely their responsibility is counterproductive at the least.
You earn respect by how you live, not by what you demand.
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o11c
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Re: Support

Post by o11c »

Let me clarify: Debian has a policy that more or less states: "there are no changes to software in stable". Other distributions are similar.
The testing version of Debian contains updated packages - they have not abandoned/orphaned their support of our packages.

By only having stable releases so rarely, Debian (and their users) *know* that they will end up with outdated software (which may not be able to talk to other systems running software that was written later) - and that is *their* policy decision. (It is also the reason Ubuntu got popular).
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Crush
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Re: Support

Post by Crush »

Couldn't you write some shell script or whatever which Linux users can download from our website and run to install the newest client regardless of what distribution they are using? Yes, we have the sourcecode distribution, but compiling software yourself is far outside of the technical expertise of most of our users. They need a one-click solution.

For an operating system which claims to "value the users freedom" many Linux distributions are doing their best to tie the users to a central software repostitory maintained by a single corporation.
  • former Manasource Programmer
  • former TMW Pixel artist
  • NOT a game master

Please do not send me any inquiries regarding player accounts on TMW.


You might have heard a certain rumor about me. This rumor is completely false. You might also have heard the other rumor about me. This rumor is 100% accurate.
Doofus
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Re: Support

Post by Doofus »

...end up with outdated software
Words always do have meaning thrown on them by the perspective of each individual. The developer will say "outdated" about his/her software because of how much he/she has moved on since then, whereas the end user will say "stable" because it has stood the test of time. Software is only outdated when compatibility is broken and support is removed. Frustrations with corporations using broken compatibility as a marketing tool in their proprietary software is what often drives people to Linux and Free and Open Source Software in general. As an end user I expect ongoing s

The usual process for timed-released distributions is to have a backport branch for when users need newer versions of software. This does however require the software to be backportable which should be the case anywhere you can compile from source. No backporting has been done for debian/Ubuntu which is a real shame. Maybe communication needs to be made with the package maintainers as to support being dropped for 0.0.29 and would they please provide backports of a more recent version. You have links to the precompiled binaries so I hardly think you can assign all responsibility to the maintainer, who, like you guys, is likely doing their job out of their own free time. It really is a team effort.
It is also the reason Ubuntu got popular
This is not true as Ubuntu also has Long Term Supported versions that are considered stable for longer than debian's 2 year cycle. As I have said for Ubuntu 10.04 this is still a stable release yet uses the 0.0.29 client. The problem I mention is just as much an Ubuntu issue as it is a debian issue.
central software repostitory maintained by a single corporation
No that is not the case. Packages can be sourced from any repository; however, freedom means bugger all if you've stuffed up your system due to an install that's gone wrong so yes I agree very much about the one click solution. That is; however, what the precompiled binaries are designed to do (as is the case for the package-based distribution model - a one click solution is really only possible when there are a reasonably finite number of configurations for it to be compiled for).
blackrazor
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Re: Support

Post by blackrazor »

I want to be careful what I type here, because this specific area of expertise (debian / ubuntu) is very far from my strengths.

I just want to be helpful, and I'll go with the assumption that debian and ubuntu users just want a good solution to play TMW, and that this is not a philosophical debate about obligations and such. I'll stay away from the philosophy and just focus on a (hopefully helpful) solution.

TMW is free open-source software, and as such, a player named 4144 has worked long and hard on an extended client, ManaPlus, that supports TMW, among other related games. This client seems very well maintained, is totally legal to use here, and actually has many highly useful extended features for TMW, among them:
  • spells can be assigned to hotkeys
    dropping items can be assigned to hotkeys
    players can run their own shops, accessible to other ManaPlus users, and ManaMarket uses this feature also
    you can assign monsters and drops to priority and ignore lists, so you don't mis-select what you don't want
    you can have a window open for who is online in the game, tracking friends and enemies too
    you can see your attack speed and walk speed with F2, in addition to the other useful statistics
    you can have a window that tracks your XP/min efficiency
    you can adjust the range from where you run and pick up loot with the Z key
    you can use pathing to navigate from portal to portal within the game
    probably even more, but that's what I've discovered so far
Also, Manaplus seems to have support for debian and ubuntu. I probably should have mentioned that first. :lol:

Find out more here, if this solution is of interest to you:
http://manaplus.evolonline.org/
http://manaplus.evolonline.org/repository
http://www.playdeb.net/software/ManaPlus
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Try-zar
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Re: Support

Post by Try-zar »

I'm with blackrazor on this. Just add ManaPlus's repository and update. Fast, simple and backward compatible.

How backward compatible? I use the Debian Lenny package provided to build the SliTaz Linux package and it works perfectly. All the fixes and updates with none of the hassles.

It's not TMW responsibly to keep a distribution's package up to date. It's the responsibility of the packagers of that distribution. The TMW Developers/Contributors have no access and thus no ability to alter any distribution's repository.
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Crush
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Re: Support

Post by Crush »

The question is: When 4144 can provide up-to-date download packages for so many different operating systems, why can't TMW? (even though their release cycles are much longer)
  • former Manasource Programmer
  • former TMW Pixel artist
  • NOT a game master

Please do not send me any inquiries regarding player accounts on TMW.


You might have heard a certain rumor about me. This rumor is completely false. You might also have heard the other rumor about me. This rumor is 100% accurate.
Ablu
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Re: Support

Post by Ablu »

Mana can at least. I can do a tmw branding for fedora btw. Mana is close to get accepted into fedora packages
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Try-zar
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Re: Support

Post by Try-zar »

Crush: Technically they do support Debian/Ubuntu @ https://launchpad.net/mana
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o11c
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Re: Support

Post by o11c »

There are no technical difficulties in building the current mana client to any distribution released since about 2008. Again, it is the choice of the individual distributions whether to do the builds.

The Mana team has a PPA for Ubuntu releases including Lucid (10.04): https://launchpad.net/~mana-developers/+archive/ppa

For simple things, installing an older Ubuntu PPA on Debian usually works.
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Doofus
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Re: Support

Post by Doofus »

Ah cool so there is backports!
Shame debian's wasn't done at the same time as Ubuntu's but I guess PPAs being less official there isn't the same level of communication between maintainers.
Great to know thanks!
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