Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Got something on your mind about the project? This is the correct place for that.
Forum rules
This forum is for feature requests, content changes additions, anything not a Bug in the software.
Please report all bugs on the Support Forums
Chay
Novice
Novice
Posts: 78
Joined: 02 Dec 2013, 08:56

Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by Chay »

First of all I'd like to sketch status quo:
1 It seems there is a problem with people insulting other characters in crowded places.
2 There is no wish for a logging all of public chat.
3 gm's (the player base elected and tmwc confirmed game masters) are the only people who are trusted to be valid witnesses to an insult
4 gm's can and do stay invisible in crowded places in game for a longer period of time
5 gm's are not online all day so there is a huge timeframe where 1 can happen safely

So to solve 1, i suggest changing 5 to: a gm parks his character in @invisble state somewhere in tmw (Hurnscald would be an obvious choice) 24/7. which might allow 3 to be applied, 2 is untouched as 4 is and has been valid for a long time.

What do you think?

edit: This is not a 100% solution, the invisble status however might increase awareness ("the fear method")
User avatar
Nard
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1113
Joined: 27 Jun 2010, 13:45
Location: France, near Paris

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by Nard »

Your solution is the minimum among the possible ones. I support it if possible. By the way, GM can already do it whatever our opinion is, if they have the material ability to do it.
My opinion is that TMWc doesn't require Players agreement to decide a rule change, though it is greatly appreciated when it does it.
There can also be a (or several) text bot with GM status, which can record 24/24 both public chat and GM channel (@wgm-s). Whether it is visible or not is another problem, just as it's (their) location, which depends on the targeted goal.Insults such as the ones that occured recently are somewhat rare nowadays, thus I am not sure that heavy measures are worth the time and effort. The discussion that happened is a recurrent one though, thus it is important to decide something, with no need to hurry.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
User avatar
WildX
Developer
Developer
Posts: 1700
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 15:13
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by WildX »

That's the same as keeping logs just less practical.
User avatar
Nard
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1113
Joined: 27 Jun 2010, 13:45
Location: France, near Paris

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by Nard »

I was perhaps wrong, but I imagined public chat log in a much larger way (all maps), because GM don't have time restriction to listen public channel.
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
User avatar
WildX
Developer
Developer
Posts: 1700
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 15:13
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by WildX »

What's the difference between being logged in town or in all maps? What kind of secret discussions could you possibly be having? The log would be read only in case of abuse reports in that map anyway.
User avatar
Nard
Knight
Knight
Posts: 1113
Joined: 27 Jun 2010, 13:45
Location: France, near Paris

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by Nard »

The purpose is not to find secrets but to be able to answer to player complaints about public insults or harassment.
(I supported public chat log.)
"The language of everyday life is clogged with sentiment, and the science of human nature has not advanced so far that we can describe individual sentiment in a clear way." Lancelot Hogben, Mathematics for the Million.
“There are two motives for reading a book; one, that you enjoy it; the other, that you can boast about it.” Bertrand Russell, Conquest of Happiness.
"If you optimize everything, you will always be unhappy." Donald Knuth.
User avatar
prsm
Game Master
Game Master
Posts: 1547
Joined: 24 Mar 2009, 18:18

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by prsm »

Chay wrote:First of all I'd like to sketch status quo:
1 It seems there is a problem with people insulting other characters in crowded places.
2 There is no wish for a logging all of public chat.
3 gm's (the player base elected and tmwc confirmed game masters) are the only people who are trusted to be valid witnesses to an insult
4 gm's can and do stay invisible in crowded places in game for a longer period of time
5 gm's are not online all day so there is a huge timeframe where 1 can happen safely

So to solve 1, i suggest changing 5 to: a gm parks his character in @invisble state somewhere in tmw (Hurnscald would be an obvious choice) 24/7. which might allow 3 to be applied, 2 is untouched as 4 is and has been valid for a long time.

What do you think?

edit: This is not a 100% solution, the invisble status however might increase awareness ("the fear method")
I try to be on at least a minimum of 40 hours a week. The game does have trollers and people that insult, I have witnessed it and intervened when need be. More and more I stay on invisible, since people tend to act up more when a GM isn't around. That all being said, you do have @wgm if you feel you are being insulted.

I see 2 or 3 @wgms a month, and almost 100% of them are people asking for broadcasts, or answers to silly questions, or making jokes. No one ever says "can you come witness this".

If you (and I am using the word you to mean anyone that plays tmw) needs help in the game against bullying, insults, scammers ......use @wgm.
ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
User avatar
Chicka-Maria
Developer
Developer
Posts: 1559
Joined: 19 Feb 2010, 03:10
Location: Internet

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by Chicka-Maria »

.:WildX:. wrote:What's the difference between being logged in town or in all maps? What kind of secret discussions could you possibly be having? The log would be read only in case of abuse reports in that map anyway.
+1
Yubaba
TMWC Member of The Mana World
Leader of The Mana Empire (TME)
[19:41] Ladysugar: he told me to push a setzer up his rear
www.deviantart.com/comfycheeks - Old Deviant Art
William James wrote:Act as If what you do make's a difference, because It does.
Chay
Novice
Novice
Posts: 78
Joined: 02 Dec 2013, 08:56

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by Chay »

Well the biggest difference is that there not anything needs to be changed server side nor rule wise. It is a simple solution using status quo valid method.
All that needs to be done is a willing gm setting himself up to do the 4144(sitbotchatlog) somewhere in tmw not touching the current ruleset. And prsm i agree, @wgm should be used and would be logged in that case too.
User avatar
veryape
TMW Adviser
TMW Adviser
Posts: 557
Joined: 06 Dec 2012, 13:08
Contact:

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by veryape »

I generally think that this is a good idea. I have a machine running 24-7 and I could easily run a gm-char there that is hidden at all times just logging the general chat in town if you guys thinks it is a good idea.

I can change positions of it every once in a while so no-one knows where it is at, from general storage/hurnscald/tulishmar etc.

However I do not intend to read the logs if I don't get a report about something.

Does this sound fair?
Characters: veryape / Captain Dunce / Elvara / veryapeGM
User avatar
WildX
Developer
Developer
Posts: 1700
Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 15:13
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by WildX »

So it's like logging but this time we wouldn't know where or when we're being logged? And what if the abuse happens in a different map? These suggestions have all the privacy concerns of real logging (even more) and half of the benefits...
blackrazor
Warrior
Warrior
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by blackrazor »

.:WildX:. wrote:So it's like logging but this time we wouldn't know where or when we're being logged? And what if the abuse happens in a different map? These suggestions have all the privacy concerns of real logging (even more) and half of the benefits...
Compromise is like the making of sausage, and believe me, you don't want to see that being made, either. But it tastes fine (for most people), if you don't trouble yourself with what is in it.

Players already log chat on their characters. GMs are players too. GM logged chat is the only logged chat that is both currently allowed and allowed as proof for acting upon abuse complaints. Therefore, I see no major downside.

For the record, I support the recording of *ALL* chat, to enforce complaints. You could make it so the chat collected in this way is discarded after 48 hours, except for those portions used to substantiate an abuse report. And yes, I did vote as such in that poll. Privacy in your bedroom is good; privacy in an online game full of anonymous trolls is not. (No disrespect intended to reputable players.)
User avatar
yourmistakes
Knight
Knight
Posts: 695
Joined: 05 Dec 2009, 07:08
Location: North Korea
Contact:

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by yourmistakes »

I would like to introduce this crazy notion that people learn to deal with assholes. It's not unheard of that developing this skill a little bit would help them in real life, either. I'm not suggesting by any means that tmw be left to the trolls to degenerate into a cesspool of abuse and insults, however, just as in real life, there are times when the police aren't going to be around to stop someone from calling you an unpleasant person. Besides, if we need logs, we can always subpoena the NSA. I'm not particularly comfortable with every line of text i say being logged by another entity, what with my communications already crossing numerous borders and a trans-atlantic fiber backbone.
User avatar
Crush
TMW Adviser
TMW Adviser
Posts: 8046
Joined: 25 Aug 2005, 17:08
Location: Germany

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by Crush »

Closely related thread from last year: Proposal for limited public chat logging
  • former Manasource Programmer
  • former TMW Pixel artist
  • NOT a game master

Please do not send me any inquiries regarding player accounts on TMW.


You might have heard a certain rumor about me. This rumor is completely false. You might also have heard the other rumor about me. This rumor is 100% accurate.
blackrazor
Warrior
Warrior
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: Proposal for 24/7 public gm witness

Post by blackrazor »

Crush wrote:Closely related thread from last year: Proposal for limited public chat logging
I specifically liked something Madcamel said in that thread:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17954&start=13

He was looking at ways to make screenshots from anyone (not only GMs) verifiable and trusted for making abuse complaints, thus negating this reason for chat logging in the first place. For example:

1) Add server-generated hash-codes to each line of text, that would no longer match with the text, if it was altered.

2) Or my personal favorite, putting a "send SS to GM" button in the client, that directly sends the text from the player's client (or a screenshot file) to the server, where the GMs can act upon it when they are available. Sort of like a @wgm that includes the relevant information that a GM would need, along with the call.
Post Reply