My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

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Kane
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My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by Kane »

Hello, my name is Kane Hart. I came to TMW community back in 2009. Just like back then I was learning how to run my own server and wanted to make my own little game. My personal experiences are running Servers, Gaming Servers, and Communities. One of my biggest accomplishments in my life was moving in with my best friend and throwing out everything we had in our lives and started to make a game in Unity3D. The second biggest accomplishment was starting up http://terrariaonline.com Fansite. My third one was starting up http://godcraft.com & http://stonelegion.com they were pretty large Minecraft Servers. Godcraft had even hit newspapers with the project called Moria.

Out of everything in my life that I have done that was pretty important was not fuelled by skill but fuelled by the community and would of not even existed without the community. This is the power of the people and clearly TMW embraces this as much as possible or it would have never lasted.

That being said I'm here to make some feedback. Just a warning I'm not trying to be a jerk, ass, or a buttface. But some things that I say might come out as sarcastic, rude, or buttface. I don't mean to come out that way but I have a habit of sometimes talking like an ass and never meaning to sound like an ass!


First Day connecting to TMW Server:
Holy crap nothing has changed, Alt F4, THE HELL I can't even use Alt F4!

Client Install and run: Smooth, easy, No issues besides the 100 Patches. We need to compile down some of the patch into one file and call it main or something like that and for smaller updates and patches just reuse past patch files rather then having a new user down 100 tiny files and causing lots of micro hits to the web server as well.

One thing I find that is almost a must is to change the starting of a game overtime. Fit it some how in the lore or story but change it. The desert was great but the desert is also one of the worst starting points in a RPG. Just like a Snow Zone is as well. You always start your adventures in a forest, or a plains but not a Desert. Take this from almost every MMORPG and level facts on where people like to level the most from Level 1 and on it will be for sure in the zone that it looks more natural and forest like.

Second thing is that you are a F2P game and 100% unique community. I doubt a large portion of the players here have or had any interests in games like WoW, Rift, WildStar, etc. You will tend to get repeat players coming back time after time. Just this alone should be a good reason to sometimes change up the starting zone here and there. You want to impress the players and show them some changes when they come back after many years of being away.


Client Suggestions:
  • Larger Hit box for clicking. It's becoming harder and harder to click on Mobs, Npc's, etc. For people who enjoy click attack and such we need a bigger hitbox to click on to make sure we actually make it to our destination.
  • A feature to hide the character sprite health bar. http://i.imgur.com/yEhQZOl.png It gets in the way of the mobs HP Bar.
  • Mob Health Bar http://i.imgur.com/GdcyRRd.png Worst example ever. But the idea is a nice large bar that shows the targets health bar.
  • When the emote is out it be nice if you can have chaht show above the emote instead of through the emote. Language warning I was using this to compare to another game my friend and I were working on and I sent him this picture and too lazy to learn the skill again haha http://i.imgur.com/ATicQcZ.png here is his picture BTW from our other game: http://i.imgur.com/gKEOhkm.png
  • Not sure if this is possible but be nice if more settings could be applied to the client without a client restart. Including a way to resize windows in opengl mode if possible.
  • This is a must feature its sort of the future for Windows PC Gaming now that everyone begs for. Fullscreen Window Mode. So it acts like full screen application but lets you hit the windows key etc without any kind of disturbance like it was in window mode.
  • Better Windows Support. No matter what Windows is going to be the increasing player base with ManaPlus. You have it on steam, you have it on mobile now, and always had it for Windows / Linux. But as the time grows the more and more Windows Users will show up. I would love to see better supporting in the development testing area like SDL2 that is the future feature for ManaPlus and builds as far as I know on Linux / Android just fine. Windows Love is a must as much as you guys hate it I just want you make you aware that your sometimes making us feel like outcasts like broken Project files etc. But I will keep bugging you on this <3

TMWA Suggestions:
  • Send full path finding packet so when you click attack your not 10 tiles away fighting against air.
  • Quest Log Support. Remember your not only supporting the future of TMW but everyone who uses TMWA. Add the support in now even if TMW does not use it right away. This way future games will have the use for it.
  • More Scripting Functions scripted. I hope this makes some kind of sense but I love how the daily quests function was created. It would be nice if there was more pre-made functions / scripts created for things like Kill, gather type quests that a new or even old scripter would not have to write a book to to add basic functionality to their script.
  • Better method of testing out scripts. If its bring back reload and fix it or something new. We need better methods of testing scripts out.
  • Windows Support. This one will give me a lot of flack period. But this is not so much about Windows as it is promoting new script developers. We can't expect everyone to run windows and the scripting in this game gets complicated where it becomes harder for people to test out their scripts. I can't expect to reboot a test server 100 times an hour because someone wants to test a script on it nor can I always be there. We need to be able to create simple Windows Packages that I can give and other people can give to their users to test out scripts, maps, and other features. I rather use Windows for my server even though linux might be more stable.
I spent 90% of my time rebooting / uploading my script then I did writing the script. That was not including the painful re-login time.


overall I'm having a great time trying to learn TMWA / ManaPlus Out. It's just been harder as a Windows user to get things done even more so having to be forced with Linux at times for the server. I think the biggest issue comes down to testing scripts is like pulling teeth. It's one thing having to script an entire quests that seems so inefficient. But its another when you have to do it by rebooting a server 100 times because guess what? We are trying to attract new people and this is the worst way we possibly can do it.
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by o11c »

Kane wrote: First Day connecting to TMW Server:
Holy crap nothing has changed, Alt F4, THE HELL I can't even use Alt F4!
WORKSFORME
Kane wrote: Client Install and run: Smooth, easy, No issues besides the 100 Patches. We need to compile down some of the patch into one file and call it main or something like that and for smaller updates and patches just reuse past patch files rather then having a new user down 100 tiny files and causing lots of micro hits to the web server as well.
The reason that there are so many patches is that we *are* reusing past patches. It would be silly to customize it for every user if that's what your saying. Most of our patches are small enough that the HTTP overhead is negligible, for for the rest, it's still worth it to be able to only change one file in a future patch.
Kane wrote: Client Suggestions:
[*]This is a must feature its sort of the future for Windows PC Gaming now that everyone begs for. Fullscreen Window Mode. So it acts like full screen application but lets you hit the windows key etc without any kind of disturbance like it was in window mode.
WORKSFORME, just need to use the WM shortcut for "fullscreen" (alt-enter) instead of checking the box in the client.
Kane wrote: TMWA Suggestions:
  • Windows Support. This one will give me a lot of flack period. But this is not so much about Windows as it is promoting new script developers. We can't expect everyone to run windows and the scripting in this game gets complicated where it becomes harder for people to test out their scripts. I can't expect to reboot a test server 100 times an hour because someone wants to test a script on it nor can I always be there. We need to be able to create simple Windows Packages that I can give and other people can give to their users to test out scripts, maps, and other features. I rather use Windows for my server even though linux might be more stable.
No. The tiny barrier has proven to be a great help in separating the people who actually turn out to be useful from the ones who really want *us* to write a script for them.

There are fundamental limitations of the Windows platform - it hasn't had any major technological advances for *decades*, and even the ones it *does* support are intolerably slow. I'm not just saying this because I'm a freedom advocate, I'm saying it because the amount of effort it would take to support Windows would be vastly greater than the benefit, and that's *without* taking into account all the things that would simply become impossible (such as seamless map balancing).
Kane wrote: I spent 90% of my time rebooting / uploading my script then I did writing the script. That was not including the painful re-login time.
Unless you're doing something horribly wrong (even if you don't want to use a Real Text Editor™ inside the VM, you do know how to share folders, right?), the limiting factor of restarts would be the total amount of time to load the script. That is something that: 1. would be much slower on native Windows instead of a VM, 2. would not be fixed by bringing back the @reloadscript command, and 3. can be worked around by temporarily deleting or delnpc'ing most of the scripts.
Kane wrote: overall I'm having a great time trying to learn TMWA / ManaPlus Out. It's just been harder as a Windows user to get things done even more so having to be forced with Linux at times for the server. I think the biggest issue comes down to testing scripts is like pulling teeth. It's one thing having to script an entire quests that seems so inefficient. But its another when you have to do it by rebooting a server 100 times because guess what? We are trying to attract new people and this is the worst way we possibly can do it.
It helps neither us nor newcomers to encourage them to develop while ankle-dragging an iron ball and chain, uphill both ways, in the snow. Even in optimal conditions, it still takes at least twice as long to do *anything* on Windows as it does on Linux. I noticed the difference *immediate* when I switched to Linux 6 years ago, and Cassy noticed it when she switched 20340 minutes ago.
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by Kane »

o11c wrote: The reason that there are so many patches is that we *are* reusing past patches. It would be silly to customize it for every user if that's what your saying. Most of our patches are small enough that the HTTP overhead is negligible, for for the rest, it's still worth it to be able to only change one file in a future patch.
Yes what I was actually saying is reuse old patches. But it is good that you are doing that. I just find it unnecessary to download so many as a new user. I found on a Portable device annyoing. Then I made just one for mine and my god there is such a difference. Mind you it might be a one time difference it sure shows.
o11c wrote: No. The tiny barrier has proven to be a great help in separating the people who actually turn out to be useful from the ones who really want *us* to write a script for them.

There are fundamental limitations of the Windows platform - it hasn't had any major technological advances for *decades*, and even the ones it *does* support are intolerably slow. I'm not just saying this because I'm a freedom advocate, I'm saying it because the amount of effort it would take to support Windows would be vastly greater than the benefit, and that's *without* taking into account all the things that would simply become impossible (such as seamless map balancing).
Read your own post.. Freedom? Bullshit! If you were into Freedom then you would support Windows. Instead your forcing people to run the server under Linux. In fact after working with TMW one of the least complex MMO's I have used I found it actually not only messy but unorganized to deal with. It was like you took a Emulator for another MMORPG and altered it for a decade of mess.

I'm glad you brought up Windows Vs Linux. This is great I mean you have a point. Linux has gone so far over the last decade that it could even run bloatware without performance issues. I mean that is what your saying right? Because what the hell kind of technological advances have you been needing to run TMWA with?
o11c wrote:Unless you're doing something horribly wrong (even if you don't want to use a Real Text Editor™ inside the VM, you do know how to share folders, right?), the limiting factor of restarts would be the total amount of time to load the script. That is something that: 1. would be much slower on native Windows instead of a VM, 2. would not be fixed by bringing back the @reloadscript command, and 3. can be worked around by temporarily deleting or delnpc'ing most of the scripts.
I'm new to it. I have never scripted and I learn by trial and error. Almost all the script examples I asked for were full of bloat and odd calls that made no sense. Once I gutted them out and made and smaller and simpler script then yeah I had to reboot less.

But the thing is people like to test and visually see what were scripting for. Why bother with a scripting engine and just use C++ I mean you are pretty much saying that you should write it all then compile it and hope to god your not a idiot :P




Either way your hate for Windows is once again going to put TMWA in jeopardy... Maybe not so much players playing it but once again even my creative buzz working on it is going away sooner then I expected. My hope was to bring new blood work on my own Community so you would not get spammed to death by these little kids you so fear and start bring in contributors.

For using Linux only to get rid of kids / idiots / etc is a joke at best. You keep telling me how Linux is simple and easy. Your right I been using it years on servers. Installing setting up and running things is so simple that you think maybe its the Linux users who can't handle Windows... Because its to damn hard!


Also you and 4144 need a better way to communicate client changes. You guys got talking about Path Packets and Hp Packets 2 big things the client supported and I assume you would of enjoyed knowing this sooner then later as well. Maybe a thread that 4144 can keep track of special things like that just for TMWA.
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by Cassy »

First of all: thanks for the feedback! :alt-3:
Feedback is one of the most important things we need to develop TMW.

I don't have much technical knowledge but I want to say something regarding Windows/Linux:
About two weeks ago I never used Linux, not even saw a computer with Linux "live" - only screenshots.
And now? Just two weeks passed and I already love my Fedora laptop and can totally understand why everyone wanted me to get a Linux based OS.

Big Crunch, melkior, wushin and meway tried to create a decent development environment for Windows users.
It either didn't work or was totally different from Linux (of course)... it's just not comparable.
It's just not that easy and in the end everyone who spent countless hours on this did it voluntary.
You are right, there should be a way for Windows users, but you can't demand it or say people are forced to use Linux ;)

In a nutshell:
They tried, some ways even work(ed) more or less, but in the end Windows just sucks.


Written from my Windows 7 computer.
Main characters:
Lv.94 - Cassy - speedarcher on dark path, bunny-wannabe, would like to ride on a Mouboo once...
Lv.95 - Biqcassy - mage on light path, addicted to her Fluffy Hat, love-hates Fallens, really misses Confused Tree...
Lv.70 - Simca. - dreams of becoming a speedarcher on light path, still has a lot to learn...

Personal development overview | priorities | wiki to-do | wiki profile incl. other characters

[20:24:59] <Cassy> debug npc in crypts!
[20:25:02] <Cassy> just a joke...
[20:25:08] <wushin> DONT DO THAT
[20:25:10] <o11c> !slap Cassy
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by Kane »

Yeah for me I guess I would have a more Linux Mindset if even 10% of users used Linux. One the nice parts of steam it shares stats to get an idea of what most PC Gamers are using and BTW more useful then just saying more use Windows but you get an idea of hardware and help direct where TMWA / ManaPlus should go. Its not bad figuring out Avg users info :)

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

I used it to judge the default res that another game I was working should open up in window mode.

Aww No Like Button for Cassy :P I clicked the imaginary like!
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by wushin »

Well I think short term the easiest way to get it on windows is via a VM. Most people can handle Installing VirtualBox or VMWare on a windows machine that can host a server. I tried getting https://vagrantcloud.com/ to work https://github.com/wushin/tmwa-vagrant but I don't have the time.
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by Kane »

wushin wrote:Well I think short term the easiest way to get it on windows is via a VM. Most people can handle Installing VirtualBox or VMWare on a windows machine that can host a server. I tried getting https://vagrantcloud.com/ to work https://github.com/wushin/tmwa-vagrant but I don't have the time.
I did not see this but I was making my own template with VirtualBox. I got bored when came to port forwarding I did not want to google how to do it through the Interface and gave up. I decided for anyone who wants to be part of our team who wants to help script here and there that I would just host them their own cheap VM of like 256mb or so.



Few Client Suggestions after giving the client to a couple of friends.
  • They would like it if Esc closes most general menu's. So Inventory is open and you hit escape it would close the inventory screen unless maybe the lock icon is clicked.
  • They would also like it if you hit Esc that options menu button was there in plain sight. Most game if not all have options in Esc and makes another good shortcut to the menu.
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by AnonDuck »

Kane wrote: It was like you took a Emulator for another MMORPG and altered it for a decade of mess.
That's exactly what happened. o11c is making heroic efforts to clean it up after decades of mess. Hopefully the @reload command will come back soon, so all scripts/etc can be reloaded without restarting the server. That'd really smooth out testing/development even if the command were a little too buggy for production servers.

I fully agree with not supporting windows because Cygwin isn't really being kept up to date. Without a good POSIX-ish/BSD compatibility layer the code would have to be littered with #ifdef WINDOWS type things. The server's already enough of a mess as it is without introducing multiple distinct code paths for various operating systems. This doesn't mean the code shouldn't be portable to operating systems that have the correct standard libraries and APIs however. It'd be easy to make it work on OSX, *BSD, etc for instance, though this isn't a huge priority.

Vagrant is an acceptable solution for windows users as long as it's kept up to date and documented better. People shouldn't have to worry about learning how to setup a Linux box just to work on TMW. Learning git etc is already hard enough as it is. Anything we can do to lower the learning curve is a good move.

Kane, o11c and wushin are swamped. I'm swamped with RL work. Maybe you could help make the vagrant setup more spiffy and document it in the wiki, linked from "How to Develop"? This way you get a decent and easy development environment for yourself that you can also share with others.
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by Ablu »

I have said this before on IRC. I think easy to use windows builds (easy as in download zip, unzip, run it) would most likely attract very many developers who first only start experimenting but then also could contribute back work if they tasted the blood :)

About performance on windows: Even if it would be slower (for what i see no reason at all) it is still a lot easier than working within slower virtual machines.

Ideally you would not even need cygwin. (for the Mana Server we could simply provide a .zip with prebuilt .exe's (via mingw) and example data) (the reason why we do not do it yet is since i still want to write a small ui frontend for our server monitor to obsolote the use of the console).

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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by AnonDuck »

Maybe this topic should be split..

It has nothing to do with speed/reliability. It's 100% a compatibility issue.

Building under mingw would be near impossible without depending on a lot of external libraries or writing our own compatibility layer. Windows doesn't have drop-in replacements for epoll or kqueue for the new networking code for instance. It doesn't have unix-like signal handlers, inotify, setpriority, and a whole bunch of other things. We'd have to develop workalikes using the windows APIs to emulate these calls. Not an easy task.

Cygwin does a lot of that emulation, which is why we used it for the windows builds. Unfortunately it's getting rather old and crusty and still does not support many basic things, much less more modern calls that have been introduced on *nix platforms in the past 10 years or so. I don't even think it supports the c++ standard o11c has been using. To continue using cygwin would limit the code to using ancient ugly and inefficient interfaces just to get it to build.

Is it *possible* to do decent windows builds? Sure. But it would signifigantly muddy the code o11c's trying to clean up, and it would take a lot of time/effort that could be used to improve the server and gameplay instead. Priorities.

Then there's the issue of all tmw development being git based. Git doesn't really work so well on windows. I mean it does, but it's not feature-complete and there are odd bugs that could certainly confuse a novice. Furthermore there would have to be different sets of documentation for windows vs *nix. Different folders, editors, etc etc etc.

As I said before I'm entirely for making TMW easier for people to hack around and play with. I even got grumpy with o11c for dropping windows support until I thought it through carefully.

In the end, a windows port doesn't really seem practical at this time. So let's come up with something else like making vagrant easier to setup and use. A good set of instructions like a HOWTO would be a great start. Maybe someone could even make an installer that does most of the work for people so all they have to do is click an icon and they are ssh'd in to their tmw server and ready to do a tutorial.
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by o11c »

MadCamel wrote:As I said before I'm entirely for making TMW easier for people to hack around and play with. I even got grumpy with o11c for dropping windows support until I thought it through carefully.
... and you actually committed the first commit that is *certain* to fail on Windows ...
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by Ablu »

MadCamel wrote: Building under mingw would be near impossible without depending on a lot of external libraries or writing our own compatibility layer.
I do not think that external libraries are bad... They are exactly there to do one task good (and often on all major systems)
MadCamel wrote: Windows doesn't have drop-in replacements for epoll or kqueue for the new networking code for instance. It doesn't have unix-like signal handlers, inotify, setpriority, and a whole bunch of other things. We'd have to develop workalikes using the windows APIs to emulate these calls. Not an easy task.
Yes. Windows does not have dropin replacements for this. But it has ways to do the same stuff (using the windows API of course). And libraries take away this burden from you.
MadCamel wrote: Cygwin does a lot of that emulation, which is why we used it for the windows builds. Unfortunately it's getting rather old and crusty and still does not support many basic things, much less more modern calls that have been introduced on *nix platforms in the past 10 years or so. I don't even think it supports the c++ standard o11c has been using. To continue using cygwin would limit the code to using ancient ugly and inefficient interfaces just to get it to build.
I guess i can agree here. I did not to a lot with cygwin. But the stuff that i did did not feel right :P
MadCamel wrote: Is it *possible* to do decent windows builds? Sure. But it would signifigantly muddy the code o11c's trying to clean up, and it would take a lot of time/effort that could be used to improve the server and gameplay instead. Priorities.
Well i guess this is the main point. If tmwa was not designed to be flexible enough then it sure is not easy to make it work. But i think the more cleanup goes into the code the easier it might get later on. And i think in the end it would pay off.
MadCamel wrote: Then there's the issue of all tmw development being git based. Git doesn't really work so well on windows. I mean it does, but it's not feature-complete and there are odd bugs that could certainly confuse a novice. Furthermore there would have to be different sets of documentation for windows vs *nix. Different folders, editors, etc etc etc.
Not sure what "bugs" you mean there... Also i think that there are now multiple usable uis which at least allow you the most tasks a newbie would need (so you would not scare them away with the console)
Also not sure what would be different in the documentation rather than a section for making it work under windows. Windows has editors too,
MadCamel wrote: In the end, a windows port doesn't really seem practical at this time. So let's come up with something else like making vagrant easier to setup and use. A good set of instructions like a HOWTO would be a great start. Maybe someone could even make an installer that does most of the work for people so all they have to do is click an icon and they are ssh'd in to their tmw server and ready to do a tutorial.
Well if it is intuitive to use that might be a solution... But ideally the user should not even notice that he works with a virtual machine.

Regards,
Ablu
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Re: My Personal Feedback on TMWA & ManaPlus.

Post by Hello=) »

Ablu wrote:ideally the user should not even notice that he works with a virtual machine.
In Linux you can even achieve something like this in some cases, thanks to things like binfmt_misc support, so it can launch foreign binary in transparent way. E.g. you can launch ARM ELF on x86 and then binfmt support could kick qemu in transparent mode for you, if things were set up correctly. So it would look like if ARM binary just executed on x86 system like if it was ARM, etc.
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