Botting while not AFK

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Livio
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Botting while not AFK

Post by Livio » 02 May 2020, 03:15

That rule change is unclear to me. So a bot is allowed even if it actually is producing advantages to player(s) but only if who manages it is not AFK?
Isn't that allowing to use a virtually unlimited amount of bots to provoke area saturation and extremely fast monster respawn rates with huge amount of drops?
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kytty
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by kytty » 02 May 2020, 03:36

Yes, people is allowed to bot as long as they are not away from the keyboard. If they don't answer GMs in time it will be banned. Also, that does not mean you are allowed to multibox. If you are caught attacking at the same time with your bot, even though you are at the keyboard, you and your bot will be banned as well. And I guess you already know what a bot is allowed to do.
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jesusalva
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by jesusalva » 02 May 2020, 04:59

Some funny Illustrations of what kytty said:
Spoiler:
I'm a friendly AI which do not spam, I was coded by Livio and I'm found fighting with Livio at any given moment in time: ban, ban! (multiboxing)

I'm a friendly bot which do not spam, in fact, I do not speak at all. bad, ban! (will not be able to reply at a botcheck)

I'm a user macro which makes me attack without player touching the keyboard. I also randomly dance when I feel like it and do other cool stuff. If a GM call me, I reply them almost immediately because the user is always at the keyboard and available to reply. GOOD! It is not multiboxing nor AFK botting.

I'm a super AI, capable to emulate a player of myself. I can understand GMs and pass their botchecks (even when they ask something unexpected, like to dance). I also do not multibox with my developers and whatelse. GOOD! Wait, are super AIs a new form of lifeform? Meh, if it passes a botcheck it is fine.

I'm an alien from galaxy Delta and I like the game. But I hate ManaPlus, so I wrote my own client. GOOD! The rule is very specifically about obtaining "illegal" advantages ingame, that is, by using macros or stuff to cheat or obtain other sort of advantage.

Automating work which you would do yourself (eg. manaplus client forces you to press "ctrl", but alien could have that bound to a thinking stream and the AI doesn't needs a key at all; And the user macro needs you to press a key to start) is fine, but if you're AFK, then you're obtaining an illegal advantage over others.
And that'll get you banned.

Likewise, if you, automatically or manually, use multiple accounts which belong to you to obtain advantages, that's also a ban.

In all of those cases, GM discretion applies. If you're an alien and is living in Livio's house, and the GM thinks you're not an alien but instead Livio - Bye bye :alt-4: :mrgreen:
PS. Using automations to reply at GM botchecks will be seen as AFK botting even if you're not AFK.
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Livio
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Livio » 02 May 2020, 09:45

jesusalva wrote:
02 May 2020, 04:59
I'm a user macro which makes me attack without player touching the keyboard. I also randomly dance when I feel like it and do other cool stuff. If a GM call me, I reply them almost immediately because the user is always at the keyboard and available to reply. GOOD! It is not multiboxing nor AFK botting.
That feces is crazy. What about players that aren't able to use a bot? What about those striving for money and experience with crappy equipment when almost nobody (human) around is willing to give them a hand?
Is The Mana World a MMORPG or a damn machines battlefield where programmers are allowed to have more power than players?
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jesusalva
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by jesusalva » 02 May 2020, 10:44

Livio wrote:
02 May 2020, 09:45
jesusalva wrote:
02 May 2020, 04:59
I'm a user macro which makes me attack without player touching the keyboard. I also randomly dance when I feel like it and do other cool stuff. If a GM call me, I reply them almost immediately because the user is always at the keyboard and available to reply. GOOD! It is not multiboxing nor AFK botting.
That feces is crazy. What about players that aren't able to use a bot? What about those striving for money and experience with crappy equipment when almost nobody (human) around is willing to give them a hand?
Is The Mana World a MMORPG or a damn machines battlefield where programmers are allowed to have more power than players?
A few simpler bots are available on the wild, I can even give you links for a few basic ones.
ManaPlus also have its own share of automations.

The amount of time you usually save by using macros versus by using ManaPlus is not very dramatic, though. Anyway, as I gave as an example even further, everyone is free to make their own client for TMW if they want to. (But don't blame us if your client stops working on some "random" protocol change...)

(By the way, a bot usually cannot tank a monster your level, so a bot user is always forced to be grinding monsters which won't return them enough experience compared to active players. Bots are more used to grind money.)
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Livio
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Livio » 02 May 2020, 10:46

Still, I'm not aware that both wiki and NPCs told me I can use bots for that nor getting started for it.
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jesusalva
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by jesusalva » 02 May 2020, 10:48

Livio wrote:
02 May 2020, 10:46
Still, I'm not aware that both wiki and NPCs told me I can use bots for that nor getting started for it.
TMW does not endorses the use of bots.
Also, please see my edit.
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Livio
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Livio » 02 May 2020, 11:31

kytty wrote:
02 May 2020, 03:36
And I guess you already know what a bot is allowed to do.
@ kytty I already invited you not to take anything for granted nor relying in someone else's common sense. We can't live in nobody's mind so I prefer to be sure when I have to deal with something important like bot and game and, I believe, that you are not so aware of difficulties that a developer may encounter while programming a bot but I may be wrong as well.

As in a previous post was said that bot rules are not considered so strict and defined as those for players.
So most of judgement is left in Game Master's hands since protecting the game is a task of an utmost importance.
And still the more I talk with you guys the less I feel to know about the game and sometimes I really don't know what to do to keep up doing something useful with bots or contributing with game development.

Still, repeating helps, like ancient roman society stated many centuries ago (I better ask matto since I don't even remember how was it written) so I know that's may be boring and repetitive to you but thanks in advance for your patience explaining things and maintaining old threads updated with useful informations.
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WildX
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by WildX » 02 May 2020, 12:36

jesusalva wrote:
02 May 2020, 04:59
I'm a super AI, capable to emulate a player of myself. I can understand GMs and pass their botchecks (even when they ask something unexpected, like to dance). I also do not multibox with my developers and whatelse. GOOD! Wait, are super AIs a new form of lifeform? Meh, if it passes a botcheck it is fine.
This is actually somewhat delicate because software gets better and better. A really good bot is still a bot. A really good bot could potentially pass a botcheck, but to me it's like getting away with theft: you still stole something and it was still illegal.
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Ledmitz
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Ledmitz » 06 May 2020, 22:58

When I first started playing bots were permitted, but I quickly learned they were frowned upon. Many players were so anti-bot(prob from confusing terms with AFK) that you may have been ridiculed for using one. It was fairly common. Botchecks were also very common. It did seem tedious for GMs and players alike though. I miss them because the GY had many people in it. Many were tanks following each other using autoattack. It looked very funny but it also had charm to it. You could talk while grinding, which is harder to do now. I can type pretty fast, but others miss out. One thing other classes didn't seem to realize was how monotonous it was to just hold one key down for that length of time. I had felt then, that it would have been a nice feature in a regular client though I can't imagine anyone but a warrior using them. But all this talk of what is right and wrong for automation makes me think of all the things I consider cheats in the current client, which were rarely ever mentioned, at least not compared to bots. I'd like to see it added to the client. just my opinion. Here's a link to the post on what should be removed/hidden: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=20950
Ledmitz = Mystic = Mystical_Servant = Ardits = BoomBoom = KillerBee
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Cage
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Cage » 07 May 2020, 09:36

Ledmitz wrote:
06 May 2020, 22:58
When I first started playing bots were permitted, but I quickly learned they were frowned upon. Many players were so anti-bot(prob from confusing terms with AFK) that you may have been ridiculed for using one. It was fairly common. Botchecks were also very common. It did seem tedious for GMs and players alike though. I miss them because the GY had many people in it. Many were tanks following each other using autoattack. It looked very funny but it also had charm to it. You could talk while grinding, which is harder to do now. I can type pretty fast, but others miss out. One thing other classes didn't seem to realize was how monotonous it was to just hold one key down for that length of time. I had felt then, that it would have been a nice feature in a regular client though I can't imagine anyone but a warrior using them. But all this talk of what is right and wrong for automation makes me think of all the things I consider cheats in the current client, which were rarely ever mentioned, at least not compared to bots. I'd like to see it added to the client. just my opinion. Here's a link to the post on what should be removed/hidden: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=20950
Those times were great, I also remember when even archers used to use manabot.exe [1] and be able to hunt in the Graveyard even if they were alone.
I don't understand why it was ruled illegal even when many other games allow it, maybe it is the time to remove this rule ?

1. https://github.com/kai62656/manabot
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WildX
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by WildX » 07 May 2020, 16:32

Ledmitz wrote:
06 May 2020, 22:58
You could talk while grinding, which is harder to do now. I can type pretty fast, but others miss out.
This is the biggest problem to me. The game needs to develop its social element outside of a main town and it has always struggled with that, but the GY back in the day is a perfect example of how people would have lots of fun and chat while also fighting things. I think automation isn't the only solution to this. It's down to map design. When making combat maps we need to be very aware of the need for areas of rest (without spawns) where people can sit, recuperate and talk. There should also be less, stronger mobs wherever you want to create a space where the group fights and talks. A swarm of dozens of mobs means you need to keep moving at all times and it's only fun in limited situations.

(Kinda OT but it's coming from the discussion on bots, if we talk about this further I'll split into a new thread)
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Livio
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Livio » 07 May 2020, 17:21

I'm sure that you have a lot to tell us about how social playing has decayed in those decades. We can try to put up a guideline game development in order to lessen the impact of automation and self-isolation due to easy game and boredom
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EJlol
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by EJlol » 08 May 2020, 08:10

/me has flashbacks of the land bridge between Tulimshar and Hurnscald with murderous slimes and scorpions :alt-2:
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Cage
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Re: Botting while not AFK

Post by Cage » 08 May 2020, 14:05

EJlol wrote:
08 May 2020, 08:10
/me has flashbacks of the land bridge between Tulimshar and Hurnscald with murderous slimes and scorpions :alt-2:
Plus the fluffies at the Hurnscald end.
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