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Posted: 20 Feb 2005, 01:12
by Kyokai
We've already decided on the 9 (I talked to Clef about this). The damage percentages are pretty solid how I have outlined them. If you want to come up with a chart, talk to clef about it, because I've asked him/her to come up with original symbols to represent each of the 9 elements. I'd like you to incorporate these into your final design.

Posted: 20 Feb 2005, 01:26
by Talaroc
So, ok, I'm a bit confused here. Are you saying that you've decided upon the elements (number, type), or are you saying that you've also decided upon the arrangement? Because yes, your percentages work well with the arrangement you've laid out, but with a different layout they don't make as much sense.

Basically, it was the layout of the schools; what the relationships were, that I was proposing we vote on. Damage percentages go along with them, in that any particular arrangement has its own damage percentages set; they don't cross over well.

Posted: 20 Feb 2005, 06:52
by Kyokai
I'm not sure about the layouts (order, etc.) but as for number and type, we are set. The percentages will exist as outlined (affiliation, indirect affiliation, opposition, indirect oposition, and neutral). The actual order of elements in the wheel is not set yet (except that life is at the center). You can still make suggestions on that if you wish.

Posted: 20 Feb 2005, 08:08
by Talaroc
This must have been discussed on IRC. I'll have to get on there more often so I can be privy to these discussions.

If percentages are set, so is the layout. Your percentages won't work with a different order; that's what I was saying in my last post. The oppositions and affiliations are solid, given magickal and symbolic theory, so that can't really be changed without making it confusing.

Now, there are only two issues I have with this setup: first, I think it's a bit simpler than it needs to be; I liked the idea of the affiliations not going in a perfect circle, as it would add a bit of spice and rivalrly (and potentially additional guilds and character types based upon that rivalrly) to the magic system. That's why I set up the yin/yang seperation to be an absolute dividing line for elemental affiliations. It was still perfectly fair to all elements, it just didn't go in a perfect circle. It's basically just another character diversity thing, with some potential roleplay expansion. Second is an artistic concern. I'll be willing to take a shot at charting out the perfect circle system, but it's going to have a lot more lines if you want everything to be included since I can't do background color separation (I just sketched it out on paper, and even with multicolored lines it's going to be confusing), and I'm still not happy with the idea of putting life in the middle of all those oppositional lines. I'd much prefer to put it directly above the circle, as the "transcendent" element that is beyond the affiliations and oppositions of the more "basic" elements.

Posted: 20 Feb 2005, 10:33
by Kyokai
I'm using set numbers to promote a mechanically fair system. If 800% worth of damage is just divided on a per-element basis the way you suggest, some elements will be sure to get off easy, and some to get off badly. Trust me when I say that I've tried to design such a system before only to end up with wasted hours and complete failure. A solid circular design ensures elements that players can understand and manipulate, rather than having to check charts again every 5 minutes, as well as making the system as balanced as possible for each element. (This is similar to the reason we have the 3 generic spells for each element. If there is no time attack spell, space monsters have an advantage because no spell can deal them elemental damage with the direct opposition bonus).

When I meant things aren't set in design, I mean that we can rotate which order the various groups appear to determine which ones have indirect opposition and affiliation (like switching light and dark, so light goes with air and water while dark goes with fire and earth [which suddenly makes alot more sense now that I think of it]).

If you want to make this into a chart, that's fine with me. You may even choose to make life the big sphere that the other 8 elements are placed inside. I'd like to see a cool chart, but remember that I'm not in charge of approving that, and Rotonen gets the last word on it, so talk to him about design.

Posted: 20 Feb 2005, 11:17
by Talaroc
Well, for the record, I still disagree about the system giving unfair advantages (I'm thinking of opposition and complimentary elements not only in terms of damage here: spells can stay in effect longer, have more potent effects, etc.), but if there's nothing for it and it's already set, there's no reason for me to further press the matter.

I'll see what I can come up with in terms of a chart.

Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 00:46
by Clef
OK, first of all im sorry for my last post, i was having some feeling of being "stealed"...That was becouse a project i did in College and my teacher just steal it... i was a very bad about i had the same feeling again.

So please, just ask me if someone want to use something i did...i will agree, but i want to feel that i was respected.

So About the 9 elements, yes its good. but i must ask, wich element will work over Magic? that is Meta-Magic(magic that work on magic), like Reflect?

Thats the question...We can call the life elemental of Mana elemental..ther we can merge both Life and Meta-magic in one element...

what you guys think about?

Posted: 21 Feb 2005, 03:11
by Clef
I like the idea of a 3d sphere chart, as was shown before...we can call the circles

Earthly/Material Circle: Water, Wind, Fire, Earth

Heavenly/Etherial Circle: Light, Darkness, Time, Space.

Divine/Supreme Element: Mana/Life

And give other way to group elements as Yin/Yang types

I think it must some complexity to make a little more fun, and in some time players will learn it.

Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 01:01
by Talaroc
I like the idea of a 3D chart as well; unfortunately, with the perfect circle system, showing the relationships on such a 3D chart would be overly confusing. Perhaps something can be worked out.

In any case, I drew up a chart for the circular system. This one shows all relationships; I can remove any set of lines, but after looking at all the different other combinations, this really is the best visually. I couldn't work out a good way to include life, so I just left it out entirely; again, perhaps something can be worked out. I also rotated it a bit to place light at the top; just to work better with people's associations.

Anyway, here it is.

Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 01:31
by Kyokai
Very nice

do you think it's possible to rotate the 4 natural elements a click left, so the circle goes:
light, air, space, water,dark, earth, time, fire?

Also we have the new backstory elements up, including magic system, sages, and--hang on--what mana actually is. ... dBackstory

Also: I've posted some concept art and background for one of the sages:

Posted: 22 Feb 2005, 02:21
by Talaroc
Well, that wouldn't be rotating them, it'd just be flippint earth and air. But yes, I can do that.

Storyline: It looks more or less fine to me. I do think, though, that at some point we should bring someone in to just tighten up the language, turn the "bits and pieces" format of all the storyline stuff into one cohesive story. Definately wouldn't be me; I can't do fiction to save my life. But if someone could do that, it would help.

Sage: Again, looks fine. After I finish the animation I'm working on I can look into doing a sprite for her (I would like some general direction in terms of color by then, if you could). I would discourage the use of the "Mana Tree," considering it's a pretty overt take from SoM, but otherwise I don't have a problem.

Posted: 23 Feb 2005, 21:44
by Clef
I dont liked the backstory of the Sage...its very poor and childish...She is a SAGE of mana, but apears just a some Child that has nothing better to do.

It dont have any feelings, just empty.

The sages should be Great persons that can Inspire Players to be like then(Since they will teach magic to then)

And The drawing...its nice, but it needs to be a LOT better to Fits the a nice character.

I have a gallery:

take a look on the first one. Im not saing that is the Sage of mana, just about my art style.

KyoKai, What about Recovery and Suport Magic???
you dontspecified that on you Magic System paper

Posted: 23 Feb 2005, 22:15
by Clef
Just for Help:

Element- Elemental Spirit - God - Planet - Alchemical Process

Water - Undines - Poseidon - Neptune - Dissolutio
Earth - Gnomes - Ceres - Earth - Conjunctio
Fire -Salamanders- Ares - Mars - Combustio
Wind - Sylphs - Hemes - Mercury - Sepatario
Light - Wisps - Helios - Sun - Sublimatio
Dark - Shadowes - Hades - Pluto - Putrefacto
Time - ???? - Chronos - Saturn - Consumatio
Space - ???? - Uranus -Uranus - ???
Life -Nymphs/Dryads - Gaia - Gaia - Reproductio

Names Sugested for Elemental Spirits (since some names used are wiccans, which have religious meanings)

Water - Marine, Aquaria, Aquariel
Earth - Thor, Geon, Terra
Fire - Azarel, Pyron, Agnes
Wind - Aeron, Aneol, Vernal
Light - Aurian, Luminess, Sublima
Dark - Shaede, Obskura, Tenebrae
Time -Chronos, Tempus, The Consumer
Space - Teless, Aespasso,
Life - Ariel, Manaquel, Varla

Posted: 23 Feb 2005, 22:44
by Kyokai
Clef wrote:I dont liked the backstory of the Sage... its very poor and childish...
I feel a bit insulted. You could have put that better.

By the way, I like your gallery, I've seen it before. My drawing is somewhat similar to yours, though I rarely 'finish' by cleaning up my work as well as you do. I'll try to make up a better picture of the sage, as Talaroc has already mentioned that he needed some color to do the sprite.

I'll take your elemental spirits' names into account, but I want to get others' input before changing them again.

Posted: 24 Feb 2005, 09:15
by Clef
Im Sorry!

I don?t want to insult you, its becouse my english problems, sometimes i dont have the right word to "say" what im thinking.

I mean that you did that Fast, without refining, and wthout put you heart in that.

I dont feel nothing for what you typed about the Sage, its just some text, that explains a character, dont have LIFE..

very different on that about MANA, that one is very good.

If you agree i will do one version for the sage.