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2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 15 Jun 2009, 13:05
by Fern
I think that there is no useful 2-handed weapon... it seems that the only obtainable 2-handed weapon is the scythe, which does 75 damage points... while a bone knife has 115 base damage points.. I think that this is not fair at all.

I think that 2-handed weapons are supposed to be very slow weapons that can hit hard. They are intended to be used by characters that have low AGI but high STR. So that the hits of a 2-handed weapon by a STR based characters are total destruction (the base weapon damage should be a multiplication factor for the STR.. so a STR character gets more advantage from a high damage weapon than a low STR character).

On the other hand... daggers and knives (like the bone knife) shouldn't have so high damage, but instead they should be very light and really fast. The higher the AGI/DEX of the character is, the faster the weapon will be (high AGI character would get additional speed bonus from a high speed weapon than a low AGI character, in addition to the speed that she already has due to her AGI).

What I want to show here is that there should be some variety on weapons... every melee fighter in the mana world is choosing the weapons only based on what does have a higher damage. Currently there's no real choice, the best weapon is always the bone knife, no matter what kind of melee fighter you are.

There should be more balance. 2-handed weapons also have the disadvantage of not letting you to use a shield.. this weapons should be much more powerful for attacking, while letting the defense be weaker.

If the bone knife is having 115 base damage then there should be a 2-handed weapon that does, for example, double the damage with higher delay (maybe not exactly double delay to compensate the lack of a shield).

* For a 50-STR 50-AGI character this wouldnt make a difference (same damage/time).
* A 80-STR 20-AGI character would totally want this (higher damage/time).
* For a 20-STR 80-AGI character it wouldn't be very useful (less damage/time), but he will instead do a lot of damage with a bone knife (higher damage/time due to so much faster speed).

Ideally, I think that it's better to have only a few weapons that are balanced than to have lots and lots of melee weapons that are the same thing with increasing power and different sprites. I think that weapons are worth to be treated different from clothes.

-----

Another idea to motivate the variety regarding 2-handed/1-handed fighting would be to tweak the monsters to make them be easier/harder to kill with a specific kind of fighting technique...

For example, some monster could have a delay after they have been hurt.. so, if you hit them very fast they will be too annoyed to attack you back. Or make them "miss" easily, so that they cannot hit people with high AGI, but kill easily people with low AGI.

Some other monsters could have, for example, a really high regeneration rate, so that they can only be killed with one single strong blow. Small and fast strikes wouldn't be as effective because after each attack the monster will heal itself.

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 15 Jun 2009, 17:23
by DonCBen
I really like this idea. However I have built my character based upon the way the game has been so far, and also have sold/given away my older weapons. Now all I have is the bone knife. I do think it would be a good implementation into the new TMWserv when it opens (if it turns out that we can't transfer characters over)

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 15 Jun 2009, 21:19
by Rotonen
The weapons currently in-game would need a complete overhaul.

1) We need way more.
2) It should be rethought where they are obtainable from (both quest hardness and drop rates).
3) There should be a more subtle progression curve to effectiveness than the huge random jumps there are now.

Why not also have weapon types in the game for which we cannot display the graphics yet? Should motivate people into working on the playerset.

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 15 Jun 2009, 22:16
by John P
Off topic, I know but:

Where are we on 'different attack animations' status?

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 15 Jun 2009, 22:37
by Jumpy
+1 Rotonen

and what about the differences of hits between magic attacks and the so powerful setzer... 400 xp difference - 500 on one hit :) and it doesn"t seems like there is a problem of accuracy for mage...

Regards

i saw already so many weapons in wiki and here...

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 16 Jun 2009, 08:35
by Rotonen
John P wrote:Where are we on 'different attack animations' status?
We aren't.

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 16 Jun 2009, 14:58
by Cotillion
Jumpy wrote:+1 Rotonen

and what about the differences of hits between magic attacks and the so powerful setzer... 400 xp difference - 500 on one hit :) and it doesn"t seems like there is a problem of accuracy for mage...
I am fine with the difference in setzer & magic attack because of the requirement of components. Remember to cast that the mage is giving up iron ore powder.

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 16 Jun 2009, 20:05
by Jumpy
ok :lol: i'll give 100 iron ore + 50 snakes skins for a warrior wheapon that will allow me to make some hits at 600 :D

Regards

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 16 Jun 2009, 20:20
by Rotonen
Rotonen wrote:Basically two aspects of the game fail as it is now: not enough equipment in it and the rewards from monsters (exp, drops) just plain suck.

Players have already a concept of what is the exp per hour for monsters and they are not happy with it. This for example means that as it is now, there are only 2 or 3 monsters which are worth killing beyond certain point (which you hit fairly early) in the game.

Dropwise for quite some time you cannot get anything beyond what you get from the shop. Also the way you get your short sword is very stagnant and does not make much of a story to tell. Also I believe we should not disclose to the players what drops what so they can explore themselves.

This pastebin will not expire:
http://paste.servut.us/xe0

I have been discussing this around and just scraped something together concerning equipment drops and how they should work for the game to be more enjoyable.

Did not have time to touch the monsters, but I do tell you that we need to touch the levels, all stats and exp rewards of monsters very carefully to balance the kinks out. We are also probably going to need placeholders and / or recolorations.

Also did not have time to touch any of the other drops, such as "NPC trash" and healing items.

Additionally going once again over the leveling curve after we are happy with the process would be nice.

This is all just balancing in my mind. Revamping and improving actual content like quests is a separate process.

I'm posting this to get your opinion on my view of what the content should be more like.

I'm thinking we should first privately polish this to a point when we can disclose this publicly to the players (not completely, but basic principles without giving details). At that point we present them with a few options from which they can decide themselves. The last part of the process should run for a few months so the community would have its way and we would not rush it.

The alternatives range from "just implementing it all" through "compromizingly wiping some aspects" to "a complete wipe before implementation". I'd call for a complete wipe and find some criteria to give out dedicated players and community members a wipe t-shirt.

My first input into pseudo content, let the discussion begin.
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:03 am

This never gained a response from anyone. Jaxad took some interest into it, but the initiative died off a long time ago. Our original testing server at Enigma (some might remember, some might not) was supposed to be the testing platform for this. This never rolled out in any form.

I'm bringing this out to public in hopes of someone taking the ruins of the initiative and hopefully some discussion or even results coming out of this.

(The monsters were balanced in this process, the spawn positions were made more sensible, the drops were not in my opinion and the weapons were not touched.)

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 16 Jun 2009, 20:47
by Jaxad0127
Rotonen wrote:
Rotonen wrote:Basically two aspects of the game fail as it is now: not enough equipment in it and the rewards from monsters (exp, drops) just plain suck.

Players have already a concept of what is the exp per hour for monsters and they are not happy with it. This for example means that as it is now, there are only 2 or 3 monsters which are worth killing beyond certain point (which you hit fairly early) in the game.

Dropwise for quite some time you cannot get anything beyond what you get from the shop. Also the way you get your short sword is very stagnant and does not make much of a story to tell. Also I believe we should not disclose to the players what drops what so they can explore themselves.

This pastebin will not expire:
http://paste.servut.us/xe0

I have been discussing this around and just scraped something together concerning equipment drops and how they should work for the game to be more enjoyable.

Did not have time to touch the monsters, but I do tell you that we need to touch the levels, all stats and exp rewards of monsters very carefully to balance the kinks out. We are also probably going to need placeholders and / or recolorations.

Also did not have time to touch any of the other drops, such as "NPC trash" and healing items.

Additionally going once again over the leveling curve after we are happy with the process would be nice.

This is all just balancing in my mind. Revamping and improving actual content like quests is a separate process.

I'm posting this to get your opinion on my view of what the content should be more like.

I'm thinking we should first privately polish this to a point when we can disclose this publicly to the players (not completely, but basic principles without giving details). At that point we present them with a few options from which they can decide themselves. The last part of the process should run for a few months so the community would have its way and we would not rush it.

The alternatives range from "just implementing it all" through "compromizingly wiping some aspects" to "a complete wipe before implementation". I'd call for a complete wipe and find some criteria to give out dedicated players and community members a wipe t-shirt.

My first input into pseudo content, let the discussion begin.
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:03 am

This never gained a response from anyone. Jaxad took some interest into it, but the initiative died off a long time ago. Our original testing server at Enigma (some might remember, some might not) was supposed to be the testing platform for this. This never rolled out in any form.

I'm bringing this out to public in hopes of someone taking the ruins of the initiative and hopefully some discussion or even results coming out of this.

(The monsters were balanced in this process, the spawn positions were made more sensible, the drops were not in my opinion and the weapons were not touched.)
There is still some initiative, it's just been moved to TMWServ instead.

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 16 Jun 2009, 21:25
by Cotillion
Jumpy wrote:ok :lol: i'll give 100 iron ore + 50 snakes skins for a warrior wheapon that will allow me to make some hits at 600 :D

Regards
Yes, but how many times would you pay 100 ore and 50 skins for that weapon?

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 16 Jun 2009, 21:44
by Jumpy
IMHO

this is a serv test

players who are here for a long time or high levels cannot have a good overview nor does anyone that has not been reading the complete wiki of tmw world

lands, people religion gods and so on, history
...


never loose the end of the tunnel from your vision it is where you are heading to.

some of my feelings regarding the game after 6 months and lvl 94...

we need another place to reset stats
we need more maps, much more more lands, islands should i say tmw is too small imo
more weapon and items to make game not more customized for players but more interesting in terms of combinations of weapons armors, power, maybe not guilds now but maybe some specialisation in works, habilities and so on
maybe some more comunication so that people go and see the wiki page to have more presentation of the game in itself...
come on look at http://www.themanaworld.org/ not any presentation of the game no pict of mobs or city nothing at all ;) ok there is a link to the wiki ok ok ok

so you are the ones to say in what direction tmw goes and what you need. that's what is done i think, so go on this way you're doing well imo.

i am not requiering this and less saying it is for yesterday!
I am not saying nothing is done
I am not saying that what is done is wrong
i am just giving my positiv and constructive opinion freely.

of course i am no dev, a bad starter in pix art (but i train home) i don't do maps etc etc but i am slowly working on it to understand and be abble to do something someday as a return to tmw comunity. Now the only thing i can do is say what i think, feel, see, give my point of view.

anyone in charge of http://www.themanaworld.org/ and the wiki pages ? i can translate it in french and develop a proposal for a page to present the tmw world for first one and for second one wiki's not clear and dev oriented not player oriented.

Regards and thanks again for all

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 17 Jun 2009, 00:00
by Rotonen
jaxad0127 wrote:There is still some initiative, it's just been moved to TMWServ instead.
If any popular principles emerge from the players, it might influence that heavily.

So, the word is yours, dear players.

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 21 Jun 2009, 18:13
by Rotonen
The graphics are irrelevant from what is in the game at the moment until the playerset is finished.

Re: 2-handed weapons need some love

Posted: 03 Jul 2009, 22:14
by Anna
you can alwys make a weapon that works along side of your exp level. make it fairly difficult to achieve, and increase in bonus as the player levels. make it so you can only have one, and it is not sellable or tradeable. that way the quest is only good for the individual and we wont have 10 new characters trying this quest just for the reward to sell