The official server flamewar topic

[Rill]

Blackrazor, have you ever been GM on TMW working underneath Platyna?
Better yet, have you any understanding how botting has evolved over the 2 years I have been a GM!

Silly question, of course you do ........ than why make the above statement?

Because he is a troll, that's why.

ps. still waiting for a quote from you saying that i said i was against the move! you gotta back that up if you
want credibility!

Credibility is not what he wants.

[blackrazor]

They are not elected player representatives, they are elected-for-life + GHP approved LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS! How many times, seriously? Their job is not to represent the players, it is to enforce the rules laid down by the administration, for the players to obey. That is not player representation.

From http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 38#p132138:

A. Game Masters. Game Masters are responsible for enforcing the rules of the game, in game. Secondarily, Game Masters act as a bridge from the players to development team. All Game Masters are members of The Mana World Committee. To become a Game Master, a person must be voted in by the player community and approved by The Mana World Committee.

See also: http://forums.themanaworld.org/posting. ... 1&p=132157.

I'm looking for the official public definition of GMs in the older GHP structure. I'll post when I find it.

You can show me a quote where the sky is officially declared purple by those in power, that does not make it so. That same thread you quoted has a discussion about how GMs cannot be representatives of those they are assigned to review and punish (as appropriate). It is a conflict of interest. Maybe in the Spanish Inquisition you can refer to your enforcer and punisher as also your representative, but not in the modern world.

*more trollings*

Awww ... cute. I have my very own TheManaWorld forums stalker. Well, at least it's a girl (I hope).

[Rill]

Awww ... cute. I have my very own TheManaWorld forums stalker.

It takes one to know one.

[Len]

you can show me a quote where the sky is officially declared purple by those in power, that does not make it so. That same thread you quoted has a discussion about how GMs cannot be representatives of those they are assigned to review and punish (as appropriate). It is a conflict of interest. Maybe in the Spanish Inquisition you can refer to your enforcer and punisher as also your representative, but not in the modern

if you don't believe they go by their own definitions they themselves defined, then what makes you think they would adhere to a constitution even if they had one?

[blackrazor]

ps. still waiting for a quote from you saying that i said i was against the move! you gotta back that up if you
want credibility!

I never said you were against it. I said GMs said that they weren't a part of the move, and didn't agree with how it was done. To me that shows that they went along with it, but weren't committed to it as a matter of TMW's survival. That's not the same thing as being against it.

Here is my quote again, for you to review, so you don't accuse me of something I did not write:
http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... &start=244

All of the GMs, at various points, in various threads, claimed they weren't in on the move, and had various levels of unease at how it was done. They all supported the move, but that's not the same thing as being committed to it.

I will look for the appropriate quotes to back up my own statements, that GMs said they weren't in on the move and didn't agree with how it was done. While I'm busy poring over reams of text and we're on the topic of "backing something up if you want credibility", I'm still waiting for the TMWC (of which you are a part), to:

1) Post a link to any official signed document, organizational constitution, or certificate of incorporation that clearly assigns "the project" and its associated data-files with a particular legal group, organization, or individuals, that would give legal backing to the copying of data residing on the Platinum machine (with ownership claimed by Platyna) for the intended use of moving the game elsewhere, and across EU boundaries.

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 1&start=48

2) Post how the TMWC intends to guarantee, that if it owns said data, that it is effectively controlling the security of said data, by ensuring that it is the sole and legal guardian of said data, especially in light of the fact that this data still exists on Platinum.

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... &start=225

[prsm]

The old bait and switch,

I won't be answering you any time soon. You said I said something which i did not say.
Until you prove otherwise, i don't feed a troll!


Prsm

[blackrazor]

Awww ... cute. I have my very own TheManaWorld forums stalker.

It takes one to know one.

I'm not forum stalking you, unless your definition of forum stalking includes me defending myself from your attacks in threads were I have just posted.

if don't believe they go by their own definitions, they themselves defined what males you think they would adhere to a constitution even if they had one?

If there was a (properly written) constitution, at least the rules of data-file ownership and succession of top-admins would be crystal clear. That way, if a group acted outside the constitution, they more easily and vigorously could be called on it. Also, I don't believe there is deliberate malfeasance here, as much as a desire to take maximum advantage of perceived grey-areas and to also allow these grey-areas to continue. A constitution would eliminate, or at least greatly reduce these grey-areas.

A definition of elected-for-life (subject to executive committee approval) LEO = player representative is nonsensical, due to the obvious conflict of interest with having your enforcer / punisher also being your representative. It is disingenuous to equate that broken definition with a reasoning of why a properly written constitution would not help clarify many of the very things that have been debated in this thread.

[blackrazor]

The old bait and switch,

I won't be answering you any time soon. You said I said something which i did not say.
Until you prove otherwise, i don't feed a troll!


Prsm

More excuses not to answer legitimate questions, while I honestly perform the proper research on the question you asked. Give me a couple hours; I'm not asking for days or an indefinite period or no real answer at all, such as that the community so far has received to the perfectly valid questions that have already been submitted days ago to the TMWC via this thread, and which I linked to in my previous post.

Also, don't be a hypocrite. Don't accuse me of saying things I did not say; you claimed I said "GMs were against the move", to which I clearly proved I did not say. Yet you did not retract your accusation. I certainly cannot prove a claim which I did not make, so fix it properly, please. Stick to accusing me of saying what I actually did say, and no more or less.

[Len]

What a GM is, is not a gray area as it has been defined, and yet you believe GM's roles are contradictory to what they have been defined as. Now you say defining the rules and power structure would somehow act as a deterrent. Sure it might be easier to call them out on it, but as I've been told most players are unaware or don't care.

[Big Crunch]

I was 100% in on the move. I didnt do any of the actual moving, as that is not in my skillset at this time, however I was asked about it prior to the actual move and agreed emphatically. In fact i was in on some of the conversations regarding whether or not we should have told Platyna in x amount of time. I believe that it was my suggestion that we tell her a week ahead of the actual move, which we did via email. She has consequently said that she never received the email, which i can neither comfirm nor deny. We also posted a thread (here) 2 days prior to the actual move, which was conveniently not seen until after the actual move.

So to conclude, we GM's had every reason to want to move. Our 'Boss' wasn't available to be spoken with regarding virtually anything, to the detriment of our roles. Furthermore, all of us agreed to the move, and while wishing we felt comfortable giving her more notice, I think it has been proven that more time would have totally prevented the move, with no change to the status quo.

I think that may be what you are referring to. We did wish that we could have been open and forthcoming about the move, however none of us felt Platyna would have reacted kindly, and definitely would have entirely blocked the move and possibly removed anyone participating. Her actions after the move have certainly done nothing to alleviate that fear; quite the opposite in fact.

BC

EDIT - Also this is my last post on the subject. Everything is over and done with. It has been discussed ad nauseum. It's moved past the point of beating a dead horse. If I wanted to continuously beat a former horse shaped mass of meat and rotting flesh, I would go punch my dad. So say what you want, its no longer my concern.

[Rill]

Re: blackrazor

The old bait and switch,

I won't be answering you any time soon. You said I said something which i did not say.
Until you prove otherwise, i don't feed a troll!


Prsm

+1

[prsm]

All of the GMs, at various points, in various threads, claimed they weren't in on the move, and had various levels of unease at how it was done. They all supported the move, but that's not the same thing as being committed to it.

This is what you said, and said with conviction!

I did know about the move and supported it, although like BC i don't have the skill set to help in the move.

You also said supporting is not the same as being committed.

So prove that was my stance!

[Crush]

They are not elected player representatives, they are elected-for-life + GHP approved LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS! How many times, seriously? Their job is not to represent the players, it is to enforce the rules laid down by the administration, for the players to obey. That is not player representation. In your country, would you like to elect-for-life (subject to executive approval) the sheriffs (law enforcement officers) to your congress, and have THAT called your representatives?

I would agree that it's quite a gap that we allow players to nominate and elect game masters, but don't give them a way to get rid of them. When you would propose a thought-out and practicable GM impeachment process in a new thread I might support it.

[blackrazor]

All of the GMs, at various points, in various threads, claimed they weren't in on the move, and had various levels of unease at how it was done. They all supported the move, but that's not the same thing as being committed to it.

This is what you said, and said with conviction!

I did know about the move and supported it, although like BC i don't have the skill set to help in the move.

You also said supporting is not the same as being committed.

So prove that was my stance!

I'm glad you can read *conviction* emphasis over the internet. I cannot.

Supportive means you agree with it and go along with it.
Committed means you absolutely think it is necessary for survival, you lead, you rally support for the goal, you will accept no alternative.

They are quite different in degree.

These are the quotes I found that led me to make my statement. If I have erred in their interpretation, then unlike you (who erred in the interpretation of my quote), I will take the adult path and sincerely apologize for my fault.

Mistergrey:

1) http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 1&start=54

"I think it's clear that the move didn't happen ideally, and that even after the fact, it won't end in a nice amicable agreement."

"Being fully transparent about the planned move, surely would have resulted in Platyna taking steps to ensure she remain in power... which, wouldn't have even been a problem, had she been willing to compromise with the people carrying the project forward, and the ones moderating it for her. I say that sincerely, even as I wish it had never come to this boiling point. It really hurts the sense of nostalgia I had playing this, to see Platyna removed from (this version of) the project."

"Overall... yes we all have made mistakes. You would not likely do better in that situation, so please don't make it so black and white and point the finger at the lot of us."

2) http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 4&start=32

"I would like to point out that while I am part of this TMWC, I was not very involved with the server move, and the same is likely true for enough other members. This is not to say that I did not agree with it ultimately.. but, more to say that the TMWC did not plan this "master coup" in the manner many make out."

"I don't enjoy the way it all happened, and hindsight is 20/20 as they say - I'm sure there were better ways to handle that situation, but that applies to Platyna as well."

"The bottom line was, Platyna's method of having one person with absolute authority is very effective when done right.. but such a person should be clear about their decisions, work together with the people who add to the project or moderate the game, and not alienate those people who do all the micro managing when they are not around. "

"Long story short: I don't think there is a direct right or wrong side in this."

"blackrazor: You posted as I was writing this, so I'll only address you briefly. Your points surely sound nice and reasonable, but even while I did not like how the server move was handled, I was unable to say with any confidence that she would not do something drastic as a response to very early notice, such as remove the ones suggesting it... they would have likely left anyway if she insisted on staying in charge and didn't agree to some pretty major attitude changes."

========

prsm

1) http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 0&start=31

"it would be nice to have everyone working together, fighting is such a waste of energy! "

2) http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 0&start=35

"Slicer/Madcamel isnt the same man that played before, and 011c wears his heart on his sleeve, so do you! That will make this game great. Lets not drag it down .... lets make it good!

Let's work together!"

=====

Big Crunch

1) http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 9&start=16

"This all said, I wish there was a way to have done this without hurting Platyna's feelings. This was obviously not the absolute best way to go about it, however it was seen as the only reasonable course of action for the project.

To alleviate concerns regarding a power grab, the only thing that will change will be Platyna's removal from the GHP. Platyna is still welcome to contribute to the project in any way she chooses."

2) http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... &start=209

"I personally have nothing against Platyna and understand that her name calling is out of frustration and anger. I would be willing to accept her as an equal, but never again as a superior."

============

From these quotes, I sense, from various GMs:

a regret in how the move was carried out

some kind words and respect to Platyna

a willingness to still work with her under some circumstances

a respect for her single-point-of-authority model, again under specific circumstances

some members not being very involved in the move

a call to stop fighting and work together

============

I never said any GM was against the move! The above comments clearly show that the GMs supported the move, but had some mixed feelings about aspects of it. They were not making the above comments as committed, 100% gung-ho, we need to get rid of her for TMW's survival, there is no alternative. The comments acknowledge full support for the move, but with a more thoughtful, wistful, almost remorseful approach to it. This is what I was trying to get across, in response to frost's original assertion, here:

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... &start=210

GMs, admins, and lead devs all agreed that the move was necessary in order for TMW to survive. Note that I say "necessary" not "desireable."

======

And this was my response to frost, based on my interpretation of the above posts and quotes:

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... &start=244

"All of the GMs, at various points, in various threads, claimed they weren't in on the move, and had various levels of unease at how it was done. They all supported the move, but that's not the same thing as being committed to it."

=====

And this, prsm, was your claim about me:

http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... &start=253

"ps. still waiting for a quote from you saying that i said i was against the move! you gotta back that up if you
want credibility!"

[o11c]

blackrazor,

All of us wish the move could have been done peacefully. All of us wish a few details had gone better. But we don't live in a world where everything we wish will come true. Please, do not let thoughts of an ideal world get confused with the world we actually live in.

This is applicable to a lot of your other proposals, too.