The official server flamewar topic

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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

veryape wrote:
As I understand it (I might be wrong) my conclusion is that the others were her collaborators, she wanted to keep a structure of leadership that they thought were contraproductive - so they split with the data that the "project" owned, they have a equal claim to that data imo.

If i consider myself the king of tmw does that make me the king? What about what other people consider me to be? If everyone is what they themself consider that they are then we have a major problem - because I don't think that those views are mergeable into a coherent view.

And with the regards to the tmwbr comment.. yeah RUNNING the project is key here, who considers themselves owning something because they were hosting/forum moderators/artists is a different matter imho.

Best Regards
The other people were her collaborators to a point, but not her equals in authority. They worked under her, as volunteer employees, under her authority. Platyna was always very clear in maintaining her absolute authority / control / dictatorship over that specific server of TMW running on her Platinum server. It wasn't just what she considered herself. It's what they all understood when they signed on. Platyna was the boss. And under the GPL license for which this project and software is assigned, there is only ownership of DATA for the authority running the server, and not for subordinate employees.

It's like any other company at which you may work. You may feel that you are doing more work than the boss, but that does not entitle you to her company assets nor digital IP. You are always free to leave, but you cannot take the boss's property with you.

Now maybe not every server is run the exact same way, but this is how Platyna's Platinum server was run, and everybody knew it. And in the way she ran her server, the GPL license under which this project and software is assigned supports her claim of ownership to the data. I'm sorry if this in an inconvenient truth, but it is truth regardless of it's inconvenience.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by veryape »

blackrazor wrote: The other people were her collaborators to a point, but not her equals in authority. They worked under her, as volunteer employees, under her authority. Platyna was always very clear in maintaining her absolute authority / control / dictatorship over that specific server of TMW running on her Platinum server. It wasn't just what she considered herself. It's what they all understood when they signed on. Platyna was the boss. And under the GPL license for which this project and software is assigned, there is only ownership of DATA for the authority running the server, and not for subordinate employees.

It's like any other company at which you may work. You may feel that you are doing more work than the boss, but that does not entitle you to her company assets nor digital IP. You are always free to leave, but you cannot take the boss's property with you.

Now maybe not every server is run the exact same way, but this is how Platyna's Platinum server was run, and everybody knew it. And in the way she ran her server, the GPL license under which this project and software is assigned supports her claim of ownership to the data. I'm sorry if this in an inconvenient truth, but it is truth regardless of it's inconvenience.
I never saw it that way, I saw it as "my hardware - my rules", that is fair enough. But the people who produces the data (the players) are the rightful owners to the data, the split gave them a choice. Platyna never owned the data, it belongs to the project and the players. I never signed that someone else owns my data that i generate, I agree to the project to host my data. But I have the right to delete my data etc. As does the project - they do not have any formal obligation.

Work is another thing, someone buys my work and the output of it. I do not see how this relates to a project run by volunteers. There was no contract that said "the project = person x", the project is the sum of everyone who participates in the project unless anything else is stated. This must be the default - everything else is so weird that it must be put into a formal document imo.

Best Regards
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

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veryape wrote:
I never saw it that way, I saw it as "my hardware - my rules", that is fair enough. But the people who produces the data (the players) are the rightful owners to the data, the split gave them a choice. Platyna never owned the data, it belongs to the project and the players. I never signed that someone else owns my data that i generate, I agree to the project to host my data. But I have the right to delete my data etc. As does the project - they do not have any formal obligation.

Work is another thing, someone buys my work and the output of it. I do not see how this relates to a project run by volunteers. There was no contract that said "the project = person x", the project is the sum of everyone who participates in the project unless anything else is stated. This must be the default - everything else is so weird that it must be put into a formal document imo.

Best Regards
It was put into a formal document, that is exactly what a GPL copyleft contract is. It makes clear who owns what, exactly. And sorry but no, players do not own their own data, although EU law grants them the right to review data related to them and demand that it be deleted upon their request. A player's virtual work in a game is not considered like real work in life; you don't own anything, you are subscribing to a gaming service, and the authority running the service owns the data. It is this way in every (AFAIK) client-server multiplayer game where the data is stored on a central server, and it is certainly this way in software assigned to a GPL copyleft contract.

In the world, whether you are paid for your real work or not, the rules of ownership are the same. You may feel you are doing so much more than your boss, and heck you're working for free on top of it, but that still does not entitle you to her company assets or digital IP if you choose to leave.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by pateame »

players do not own their data, but yes, they are made free to delete it
¿Can you please delete my forum's account?
You owned the forum's SQL database with my password hash on it, I think it's stealing and I don't want to be part of this anymore.

I never registered in .org forums, actually It took me like 2 years to realize what happened with TMW's DNS situation after I returned to the game just because I didn't read the flamewars. I dont want to waste my pixelarts with you anymore, so please also remove the bunny monster from your repos: I never said "Yes, push it on git and don't use it, just store it as garbage like the meway's duck"... It's a shame all the pixelartists are gone from your ego world, but now I understand them better.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

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pateame wrote:
players do not own their data, but yes, they are made free to delete it
¿Can you please delete my forum's account?
You owned the forum's SQL database with my password hash on it, I think it's stealing and I don't want to be part of this anymore.

I never registered in .org forums, actually It took me like 2 years to realize what happened with TMW's DNS situation after I returned to the game just because I didn't read the flamewars. I dont want to waste my pixelarts with you anymore, so please also remove the bunny monster from your repos: I never said "Yes, push it on git and don't use it, just store it as garbage like the meway's duck"... It's a shame all the pixelartists are gone from your ego world, but now I understand them better.
With your permission Pateame, I would ask to keep this quote from you as part of this thread (imbedded here), in case they grant your request for deletion. It addresses some important tangential points. Players were never consulted about the move. If they didn't read the forums, they didn't know. A lot of noise has been made about how successful this server is, but that success relied in part on players like Pateame not even knowing what took place.

Q. Which server had the highest ever player population (as a measure of success in building a player community and not driving it away)?
A. Platyna's Platinum server

Q. How many players did the Platyna's Platinum server have on the day before her data was copied and pilfered?
A. many dozens

Q. How many players did the TMWC server have on the day before her data was copied and pilfered?
A. zero

All of this is tangential to data ownership. Obviously, by the player numbers and GPL contract, Platyna's Platinum was active, the baton was hers, the authority of Platinum was hers, the DATA on Platinum was hers. I bring it up only to dispute the claim some TMWC make that players were given a choice or somehow included, because they weren't. The only people who knew were the TMWC, Platyna, and active forum readers. Not many players. There was no way to tell from just playing the game what had been done to Platyna and her Platinum server.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by veryape »

blackrazor wrote: It was put into a formal document, that is exactly what a GPL copyleft contract is. It makes clear who owns what, exactly. And sorry but no, players do not own their own data, although EU law grants them the right to review data related to them and demand that it be deleted upon their request. A player's work in a game is not considered like real work in life; you don't own anything, you are subscribing to a gaming service, and the authority running the service owns the data. It is this way in every (AFAIK) client-server multiplayer game where the data is stored on a central server, and it is certainly this way in software assigned to a GPL copyleft contract.

In the world, whether you are paid for your work or not, the rules of ownership are the same. You may feel you are doing so much more than your boss, and heck you're working for free on top of it, but that still does not entitle you to her company assets or digital IP if you choose to leave.
I never gave up the ownership of my data, I generated it, I own it. There is no contract anywhere who states anything differently. At least not to my knowledge, If there is please show it to me. Anyways, without me signing it in any way it doesn't hold. So an obscure forumpost from 2005 is not going to cut it.

If there is no such argument I would love you to argue the point that Platyna is the obvious and exclusive owner of the data generated by players playing the game. I just don't find it rational that she would be the exclusive owner of the data.

What happened was that the GHP who decided to copy the data during the split ensured that the Players could decide what happens with THEIR data, not Platyna exclusively. They could decide to join the new original of the game or continue playing on Platynas original server.

In regards to a job, they pay you to get the products of your work. That is the contract you and the employer sign.

edit ---

post 666 in this topic wow, this flamewar has become pure evil :P
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by wushin »

pateame wrote: ¿Can you please delete my forum's account?
Granted
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

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veryape wrote: I never gave up the ownership of my data, I generated it, I own it. There is no contract anywhere who states anything differently. At least not to my knowledge, If there is please show it to me. Anyways, without me signing it in any way it doesn't hold. So an obscure forumpost from 2005 is not going to cut it.

If there is no such argument I would love you to argue the point that Platyna is the obvious and exclusive owner of the data generated by players playing the game. I just don't find it rational that she would be the exclusive owner of the data.

What happened was that the GHP who decided to copy the data during the split ensured that the Players could decide what happens with THEIR data, not Platyna exclusively. They could decide to join the new original of the game or continue playing on Platynas original server.

In regards to a job, they pay you to get the products of your work. That is the contract you and the employer sign.

edit ---

post 666 in this topic wow, this flamewar has become pure evil :P
You gave up "ownership of your data" because you never had it. It is an illusion that you generate your game data in a client-server model. This illusion makes the game fun, but it is only an illusion. The reality is that the software on another authority's server generates the data as you interact with it. It's all virtual and pixels, "1"s and "0"s, and none of it is yours. It might feel to you like it is yours, but just because it feels that way to you, doesn't make it so in reality. In reality, by logic and law, what is really happening is that you are using a game service, provided by the authority running the server to which you connect, and as a service, it gives you a pleasing illusion of being in a virtual pretend world, collecting virtual pretend things, growing pretend virtually. But NONE of it is real. The only real things are the "1"s and "0"s of stored DATA on somebody else's server, over which they own and have authority, and the fact that you partake in this gaming service from them. Maybe you just don't believe me. Maybe you believe in faith or whatever it is that you want to believe. Hey, don't let troublesome things, like facts, and science, and law, get in your way.

The contract governing this is the GPL copyleft license to which is assigned this eAthena-TMW server software. It is a legally binding contract on all parties (authority running the server, employees {pay or volunteer, under employment contract or not, doesn't matter}, players, etc.), drawn up by the GNU, which this project chose as its copyleft license. Go look on wiki for GNU GPL or look at the contract under which all the TMW software code assets are assigned. It's not some obscure forum post from 2005. It is a LEGALLY BINDING COPYLEFT CONTRACT LICENSE FROM THE GNU which this project chose as the license for its software and there is no "takesy backsies" on such a legal decision, made by the founders, governing their software and on who owns what when that software is being run by any given authority. Platyna, and Platyna alone, was the sole authority of eAthena-TMW server software running specifically and only on her PLATINUM servers, by law, by GNU GPL contract, by logic. She doesn't own the DNS. She doesn't own the software. She doesn't own the project. She's doesn't own the data running on other servers on other people's authority. She DOES OWN THE DATA running on her server, under her authority. And she owns any DATA that was copied and taken from her without her permission. That is GNU GPL license. Go look it up if you don't believe me. End of story.

Have you ever been a volunteer not under a specific employment contract in the real world? I have, and it happens. It doesn't entitle you to anyone's property in case you split. The GHP were under Platyna's rule, they were her volunteer employees, they had every right to leave, but they had zero right to take a copy of Platyna's digital property with them when they left. Why is this so hard for you to understand? It is very logical and legal. There was a contract governing their behavior, and it was the GNU GPL copyleft license contract of the software, and that contract clearly stated that the authority running the server owned the data, and that authority was indisputably Platyna for her Platinum server. The GHP hated that, hated that Platyna owned and controlled the server under her SOLE AUTHORITY, and that's why they left, but that doesn't give them the right to break the GNU GPL license contract. They, like anyone else, can have all the software and art assets and they can use that to make a different server of their choice, but they are not entitled to the DATA, by GNU GPL contract, they have to make their own data or use data VOLUNTARILY GIVEN TO THEM BY THE IMMEDIATELY PREVIOUS OWNER (which it wasn't).
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

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blackrazor wrote:
veryape wrote: I never gave up the ownership of my data, I generated it, I own it. There is no contract anywhere who states anything differently. At least not to my knowledge, If there is please show it to me. Anyways, without me signing it in any way it doesn't hold. So an obscure forumpost from 2005 is not going to cut it.

If there is no such argument I would love you to argue the point that Platyna is the obvious and exclusive owner of the data generated by players playing the game. I just don't find it rational that she would be the exclusive owner of the data.

What happened was that the GHP who decided to copy the data during the split ensured that the Players could decide what happens with THEIR data, not Platyna exclusively. They could decide to join the new original of the game or continue playing on Platynas original server.

In regards to a job, they pay you to get the products of your work. That is the contract you and the employer sign.

edit ---

post 666 in this topic wow, this flamewar has become pure evil :P
You gave up "ownership of your data" because you never had it. It is an illusion that you generate your game data in a client-server model. This illusion makes the game fun, but it is only an illusion. The reality is that the software on another authority's server generates the data as you interact with it. It's all virtual and pixels, "1"s and "0"s, and none of it is yours. It might feel to you like it is yours, but just because it feels that way to you, doesn't make it so in reality. In reality, by logic and law, what is really happening is that you are using a game service, provided by the authority running the server to which you connect, and as a service, it gives you a pleasing illusion of being in a virtual pretend world, collecting virtual pretend things, growing pretend virtually. But NONE of it is real. The only real things are the "1"s and "0"s of stored DATA on somebody else's server, over which they own and have authority, and the fact that you partake in this gaming service from them. Maybe you just don't believe me. Maybe you believe in faith or whatever it is that you want to believe. Hey, don't let troublesome things, like facts, and science, and law, get in your way.

The contract governing this is the GPL copyleft license to which is assigned this eAthena-TMW server software. It is a legally binding contract on all parties (authority running the server, employees {pay or volunteer, under employment contract or not, doesn't matter}, players, etc.), drawn up by the GNU, which this project chose as its copyleft license. Go look on wiki for GNU GPL or look at the contract under which all the TMW software code assets are assigned. It's not some obscure forum post from 2005. It is a LEGALLY BINDING COPYLEFT CONTRACT LICENSE FROM THE GNU which this project chose as the license for its software and there is no "takesy backsies" on such a legal decision, made by the founders, governing their software and on who owns what when that software is being run by any given authority. Platyna, and Platyna alone, was the sole authority of eAthena-TMW server software running specifically and only on her PLATINUM servers, by law, by GNU GPL contract, by logic. She doesn't own the DNS. She doesn't own the software. She doesn't own the project. She's doesn't own the data running on other servers on other people's authority. She DOES OWN THE DATA running on her server, under her authority. And she owns any DATA that was copied and taken from her without her permission. That is GNU GPL license. Go look it up if you don't believe me. End of story.

Have you ever been a volunteer not under a specific employment contract in the real world? I have, and it happens. It doesn't entitle you to anyone's property in case you split. The GHP were under Platyna's rule, they were her volunteer employees, they had every right to leave, but they had zero right to take a copy of Platyna's digital property with them when they left. Why is this so hard for you to understand? It is very logical and legal. There was a contract governing their behavior, and it was the GNU GPL copyleft license contract of the software, and that contract clearly stated that the authority running the server owned the data, and that authority was indisputably Platyna for her Platinum server. The GHP hated that, hated that Platyna owned and controlled the server under her SOLE AUTHORITY, and that's why they left, but that doesn't give them the right to break the GNU GPL license contract. They, like anyone else, can have all the software and art assets and they can use that to make a different server of their choice, but they are not entitled to the DATA, by GNU GPL contract, they have to make their own data or use data VOLUNTARILY GIVEN TO THEM BY THE IMMEDIATELY PREVIOUS OWNER (which it wasn't).
I might not be a lawyer, but I have a feeling that i own the data I generate if nothing else is stated, no matter where it is hosted. As long as I didn't agree to someone else owning the data I own the data - anything else is weird.

If i used your tools to make a chair, do you own the chair? this sounds weird. I made the chair - I own it. Unless you stated otherwise.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

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veryape wrote:
I might not be a lawyer, but I have a feeling that i own the data I generate if nothing else is stated, no matter where it is hosted. As long as I didn't agree to someone else owning the data I own the data - anything else is weird.

If i used your tools to make a chair, do you own the chair? this sounds weird. I made the chair - I own it. Unless you stated otherwise.
When you use Google Search engine (or any search engine) you create data on searching patterns that is very valuable for targeted advertising, site rankings, interactive media distribution, etc. That data belongs to Google and you didn't sign anything for that to happen, nor can you stop them from collecting and using your data for their profit, unless you stop using search engines.

When you connect to and play on any multiplayer gaming server, your interactions create data on their servers that is very valuable to them for creating a dynamic proprietary unique environment. That data belongs to the authority running the gaming server even if you didn't sign anything for that to happen, nor can you stop them from collecting and using your data, unless you stop using gaming servers or make a formal request for its deletion (if the server is in the EU).

A better real world example than your chair is, if you paint a neighbor's wall with your paint, now the wall remains his, and the paint you put on his wall is now his. You gain neither the paint, nor the (painted) wall for your efforts. And you didn't have to sign anything for this to happen. Furthermore, if you both didn't agree on a price before the painting, then you painted for free, too. All of this applies, even if you painted a gorgeous mural, full of character and art and love and emotion; it changes nothing in the equation.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Altus Institute »

wushin wrote:Yes, bring a court case. Watch it not stand up in court. I'm suggesting if anyone thinks they can bring a case against TMW to do it.
wushin wrote: We've established "Ownership" via the Open Source accepted methods.
You are right, and i thank you to have established "ownership" rules, but you seems to miss something important, we not talking about the same things, read previous post to well understand.
Eric Raymond wrote:The second way is to have ownership of the project handed to you by the previous owner (this is sometimes known as `passing the baton'). It is well understood in the community that project owners have a duty to pass projects to competent successors when they are no longer willing or able to invest needed time in development or maintenance work.
wushin wrote: The project was handed over to us by Elvenprogrammer, the founder, and their next closest heir, Bjorn. Both had moved on to other projects and had lost interest in maintaining TMW. Platyna "Hosted the project". Anything dealing with TMW belonged to the project. When Platyna says "It's mine." It just goes to show how selfish and controlling she was.
If the previous owner was Elvenprogrammer.
If Platyna was not a owner as leader of the ghp(idk if its the good name).
If you can bypass the ghp leader authority to take the project, and the data.
So in this case you are not the owner too.
And the TMCW have no authority over this project too.
The only case that you can bypass the lead authority is when you see that the leader want to sink the project by taking incompetent decision.
Was it the case?
Seems no.
wushin wrote: When Platyna says "It's mine." It just goes to show how selfish and controlling she was.
Read the previous posts to well understand what she is asking.
Seems you talk about something else.
Its your chance now to match with the topic.
Later will be too late.
Eric Raymond wrote:The third way to acquire ownership of a project is to observe that it needs work and the owner has disappeared or lost interest. If you want to do this, it is your responsibility to make the effort to find the owner. If you don't succeed, then you may announce in a relevant place (such as a Usenet newsgroup dedicated to the application area) that the project appears to be orphaned, and that you are considering taking responsibility for it.
Seems when you moved the server data, the project was alive.
And the leader, Platyna, led the project properly.
Nothing was in your hand to say that the project was orphaned.
But perhaps im wrong?
But it seems you wanted to make a fork.
And the name fork is allowed in your case.
So, the term "orginal" doesnt suit for your fork.
And as a fork you have to call people to come to see your project.
But you dont do this, you take the data of another server and used it for your own.
So, of course you are the owner of your fork, but not about the data you taken by ruse on the Platinum server.

Read my post about having the data for my own server.
You dont even take the time to answer me.
You erase my thread, and move my post in a place that you call garbage.
A place that wushin said, whoever post in the garbage place is a steampile.
Did i dreamed?
wushin wrote: Since the move, TMW .org has moved the ball forward. New content, quest logs, numerous critical bug fixes that crash a server, establishing TMW as a non-profit, making a board, grand socialism in general, etc. We have plenty of players online and have continue to create new devs, gms, and admins, etc.
Yes, its seems you did.
And as a player i can say now you stopped to fill the project purpose.
The mana world opensource project was done as game. Nothing else. Am I wrong?
No new contents from a long long time.
Only things who was added was to make easier the development, not to add new content in game.
What is a quest logs?
Does it help me to play?
Establishing TMW as non-profit?
What is the meaning of opensource?
Profit?
If you talked about affiliate to a non profit company, you should know what the meaning of incorporate.
Lets talk about the client.
No client, no possibility to play this game.
You droped an opensource client to officially take a copyrighted one.
Can we still speak about opensource project here?
You changed the project purpose, by saying that tmcw took to develop the game engine instead the game content.
You wanted to develop the game engine to add more game content?
Well, where do you talk about this topic?
Numerous critical bug fixes : seems more you fixes things more the game become unplayable. Chronic bug who came over and over.
The last i notice at this moment is the bug to not use the Lime towel.
You can use this towel to bypass the speed quest skill.
It was active and work properly.
But now you cant dye a lime towel.
So, do you want to tell me that the script erase is own line itself?
There is plenty example like this.

We can talk like this for a long time.
I dont have time for this, i have a char to level up :lol:
Platyna you still have to read two post of mine and to answer me.
19:24:32 wushin So, can you do something?
19:24:52 Altus I can do nothing.
19:25:07 wushin So you are highly capable of doing nothing?
19:25:20 Altus yerp =D
19:25:31 wushin Crap, im only highly capable of doing something...=/
19:25:34 cassy Its ok wu-wu, we all needs to start somewhere...
19:25:43 deepthought wtf
19:25:46 wushin .....
19:25:52 cassy *pokes* deepthought
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by wushin »

Altus Institute wrote:You are right, and i thank you to have established "ownership" rules, but you seems to miss something important, we not talking about the same things, read previous post to well understand.
The project, accounts and server existed before platinum and Platyna. Therefore the "Creator, Enterprise, Compiler, Funder, Decoder, Packager, Reader as owner, Licenser as Owner" of the data is the software or the project. Simpler terms: The Data's sole basis for existence is owed to the project. Thus the project owns the data and the consumers (players) own the data they use to play the game (accounts).

The "consumer" of the data is the player. (we obviously respect privacy laws of other countries and will purge your private data)
Paradigm of Ownership – Loshin (2002) alludes to the complexity of ownership issues by identifying the range of possible paradigms used to claim data ownership. These claims are based on the type and degree of contribution involved in the research endeavor. Loshin (2002) identifies a list of parties laying a potential claim to data:
  • Creator – The party that creates or generate data
  • Consumer – The party that uses the data owns the data
  • Compiler - This is the entity that selects and compiles information from different information sources
  • Enterprise - All data that enters the enterprise or is created within the enterprise is completely owned by the enterprise
  • Funder - the user that commissions the data creation claims ownership
  • Decoder - In environments where information is “locked” inside particular encoded formats, the party that can unlock the information becomes an owner of that information
  • Packager - the party that collects information for a particular use and adds value through formatting the information for a particular market or set of consumers
  • Reader as owner - the value of any data that can be read is subsumed by the reader and, therefore, the reader gains value through adding that information to an information repository
  • Subject as owner - the subject of the data claims ownership of that data, mostly in reaction to another party claiming ownership of the same data
  • Purchaser/Licenser as Owner – the individual or organization that buys or licenses data may stake a claim to ownership
- Source: https://ori.hhs.gov/education/products/ ... topic.html
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor »

Consumer as owner of data applies only to single-player games and work applications, where the computer running the app is the same computer that the sole user is physically interfacing. If you do your homework or write a letter on a word processor, draw a picture in a paint program, make a chart in a spreadsheet program, or make data in a single player game, and if those apps are licensed under GNU GPL, then the data is yours.

In a multiplayer game, under GNU GPL license, the data belongs to the authority running the server. Not the host, not the players, not the employees. Only to the authority. The baton was voluntarily passed from Ultramichy / Elven / Bjorn to Platyna, and they cannot take it back. Platyna established herself as the SOLE AUTHORITY on Platinum and it was recognized and acknowledged as fact by all under her rule. Therefore the data on Platinum belongs to her and you cannot take or copy it from her, not without her giving permission and passing the baton (which she didn't).

Right now, the data is still on Platinum. Do you think you have a right to go onto Platinum right now, and take or copy it again? Answer YES or NO. Obviously NO, right? And it's the same data, same authority then as now, so if it is NO now, then it was NO then also. An inconvenient truth for you to be sure, but truth nevertheless.

Hey Wushin, try actually quoting from the GNU GPL copyleft license under which eAthena-TMW serversoft is assigned and to which you are bound, instead of quoting lots of other unrelated articles that have nothing to do with the specific GNU GPL license that applies to you, the software, and the project. I could also quote from Herman Melville's "Moby Dick", or Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" but it would not be relevant to this specific circumstance.
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Re: Platinum moved to 3x10 Gbit line with new disks and memo

Post by blackrazor »

SriNitayanda wrote:
Cassy wrote:IIRC "you" is not TMWC but 4144 because Platyna managed to make him angry or am I confusing things here?
You know the server was listed back in mid-late 2013. till that happened ^^
It's still not a good reason, especially since 4144's client is the official TMW client now. Grow up already and start acting like adults.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by wushin »

blackrazor wrote:Not the host
The secret to getting all the important stuff done is doing nothing.
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