The official server flamewar topic

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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Crush » 26 May 2013, 22:25

Platyna wrote:Hello.

Well, I have seen it comming, since the more successful themanaworld.net is the more agressive sycophants are...

But as far as I remember talking about other servers is not against any rules, and Big Crush kicked me off the game just for that...

I feel the wind of change or TMWC is going to ask their GMs to actualy enforce the rules that exists instead of those that doesn't?

Regards.
Net more successful than Org? As time of writing there are 70 users on Org. Net has 8.

Also, as Jaxad0127 pointed out, you yourself spoke out and acted against people advertising TMW forks on TMW when you were still admin here. Why shouldn't the new admins follow your example? The Aethyra guys were (while not actually friendly) not actively hostile against TMW.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Jaxad0127 » 26 May 2013, 22:30

Crush wrote:Also, as Jaxad0127 pointed out, you yourself spoke out and acted against people advertising TMW forks on TMW when you were still admin here. Why shouldn't the new admins follow your example? The Aethyra guys were (while not actually friendly) not actively hostile against TMW.
I'll post the link here too: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 329#p39329
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Len » 26 May 2013, 23:46

Jaxad0127 wrote:
Crush wrote:Also, as Jaxad0127 pointed out, you yourself spoke out and acted against people advertising TMW forks on TMW when you were still admin here. Why shouldn't the new admins follow your example? The Aethyra guys were (while not actually friendly) not actively hostile against TMW.
I'll post the link here too: http://forums.themanaworld.org/viewtopi ... 329#p39329
To be fair she did say "on our forums" not in-game... Not that spamming I'll give you stuff if you come to .net is all that appropriate.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by o11c » 27 May 2013, 00:25

Len wrote:To be fair she did say "on our forums" not in-game... Not that spamming I'll give you stuff if you come to .net is all that appropriate.
The issue of advertising in-game was addressed in *one* of the topics, not sure how much was linked here ...
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Dyna » 27 May 2013, 01:37

Hey I'll toss my hat into this ring and play dirty.

Platyna you are nothing more than a spoiled brat who got her favorite toy taken away and now you are whining about it. You show up here and in game with seemingly random and erratic behavior and the over use of the simlie emoticon. TMW was never 'yours', its been and always will belong to those who help keep it alive with content. Over the last few years that you were 'saving' this project, you did nothing to help it. You shoved it into a box and used it to stroke your own e-ego. You'd log in, break stuff, ban people for not being nice to you and then leave. Let's not even get into how you demanded Sugar give you BlackDon's crown (that he gifted to her) because there was no way she could have it if you the self proclaimed 'Queen' couldn't. Getting content added took weeks/months/years because no one could contact you.

In the end, the facts are still the facts no matter how much you want to turn them into lies:

1. TMWC told you a week ahead that they were planning this move.
2. You DID NOTHING to stop it

Who's fault is it again that you had no say in the moving process? Right...it was yours. I don't know why you try to stir up controversy where there clearly is none. YOU DID NOT STOP IT, YOU DID NOT RESPOND. Quit blaming others for your stupid mistakes.

I told you before in another post, you are a living fossil who needs to just lie down in the mud and die already. You were only ever given any power because you chased away those who had it in the first place and took it by default. Now you know how it feels...hope you can look back on what you did in the past and admit that you were wrong.

Or you know, you can always just take another swig from your bottle and think up more excuses.

:alt-2:
Wishing things were different...hoping for better now.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Sanity » 27 May 2013, 04:56

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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Len » 27 May 2013, 05:28

Dyna wrote: I told you before in another post, you are a living fossil who needs to just lie down in the mud and die already. You were only ever given any power because you chased away those who had it in the first place and took it by default. Now you know how it feels...hope you can look back on what you did in the past and admit that you were wrong.

Or you know, you can always just take another swig from your bottle and think up more excuses.

:alt-2:
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Crush » 27 May 2013, 10:16

Crush wrote:Net more successful than Org? As time of writing there are 70 users on Org. Net has 8.
Update - At European noon on a workday:

themanaworld.org: 35 users are online.
themanaworld.net: No user is online.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by sacriopsmen » 27 May 2013, 12:34

I'm a rather old player and I never got a real interrest in the develloping problems or things like that cause I'm fastly tired of reading in english. But now, I'm not sure of what to do : I got a mail with a new server adress, but there is nobody playing on this server, and I read that the old one wasn't sure.

Am I wrong when I play on themanaworld.net ? Or are all the other wrong to play on the ancien server ?
I am not sure it's here I should ask though...
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Crush » 27 May 2013, 12:48

sacriopsmen wrote:I'm a rather old player and I never got a real interrest in the develloping problems or things like that cause I'm fastly tired of reading in english. But now, I'm not sure of what to do : I got a mail with a new server adress, but there is nobody playing on this server, and I read that the old one wasn't sure.

Am I wrong when I play on themanaworld.net ? Or are all the other wrong to play on the ancien server ?
I am not sure it's here I should ask though...
When you don't care about politics, play where you have more fun.
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Please do not send me any inquiries regarding player accounts on TMW.


You might have heard a certain rumor about me. This rumor is completely false. You might also have heard the other rumor about me. This rumor is 100% accurate.
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Post by Lt. KLAG [24th.KDF] » 27 May 2013, 13:02

Dyna wrote: [...] Platyna you are nothing more than a spoiled brat who got her favorite toy taken away and now you are whining about it.
[...] Over the last few years that you were 'saving' this project, you did nothing to help it.
You shoved it into a box and used it to stroke your own e-ego.
You'd log in, break stuff, ban people for not being nice to you and then leave. [...]
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So ... let's burn her :alt-5:
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 27 May 2013, 13:10

Well, both themanaworld.org and themanaworld.net are valid servers, with all the same data as of March 9th, 2013, and from there it diverges. Most of the players are playing on themanaworld.org from what I can see. In my opinion, the admins from both servers are engaging in petty kindergarten-style flame-wars, taunts, mud-slinging that would have gotten normal players banned under ordinary circumstances. It seems that sanity has taken a vacation from both places, and I would recommend playing on Evol or Land of Fire, or maybe something completely different, until things settle down and people decide to behave themselves and enforce the rules of civil behavior.

I am starting to think that neither TMWC nor Platyna deserve the server player files, and that the players should elect a new set of admins that will avoid starting anymore senseless crap and will honestly try to unite the community, heal the wounds, and encourage meaningful content development that the players can notice and enjoy.

From a quasi-legal (I'm not a lawyer, and I doubt anyone here has the money for an international business court case), both the forum data (all these posts) and the server data (player saves) are not covered by GPL. Every group or committee running this project, from Elven, Bjorn, Jax, Platyna, GHP, TMWC, etc was irresponsible not to ever make a constitution clearly defining the ownership of those files and rules for changing admins and hosting, so now we have this kaka-storm as a thank-you for that awesome level of foresight.

The only clear thing is that Elvenprogrammer owns the domain name themanaworld.org. One could make a sort-of legal argument that Platyna owns the files, since she hosted the software on her machine for years, in the absence of any formal agreement, contract, or constitution. She claims furthermore that Elven and Bjorn abandoned the project and their stake in it, and have only come back recently, to settle accounts with her, and because there is now actually something tangible over which to fight, which wasn't the case when they left.

Elven, Bjorn, on the other hand could (and likely have) denied Platyna's claims, and could still make a claim to the project, as original propagators of it. Elven, in particular, has some legal muscle regarding this, since he owns the domain name themanaworld.org, which was used as TMW's official domain for all these years.

Lately, I hear that the project belongs to those who develop its content, which sounds awesome cool in theory, but in practice means that any rogue developer that makes a substantial improvement or change in the future and remains active, can then lay a claim to ownership.

Heck, while we're at it, let's say that the project belongs to the community, and hold nominations and then elections for our admins, in the same way as we do for GMs.

I don't really know who the project belongs to, and I'm starting not to care anymore, either. All of have effectively destroyed the dream of OSS that it would be a grass-roots empowering and community-owned wonderful happy utopia. Instead, you have found a way to make it filthy, sneaky, dirty, nasty, just like the real "law of the jungle" corporate world, to which this was supposed to stand in stark contrast.

Seriously, with all this nastiness from all sides, how are any of you better than each other? How are any of you better than a pay project from the corporate world. There used to be a credo here, that you worked with everyone, even if you had differences with them. Maybe it was always a lie, carefully hidden, but now it is a lie, laid bare for all to see. You should all (admins) be ashamed of yourselves for destroying such a nice thing and for failing to make a constitution that would have removed all this ambiguity in the first place.

I think we need to start over. i am disgusted by what I see here now from all the people in power.
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Kazenawa » 27 May 2013, 18:10

blackrazor wrote:Well, both themanaworld.org and themanaworld.net are valid servers, with all the same data as of March 9th, 2013, and from there it diverges. Most of the players are playing on themanaworld.org from what I can see. In my opinion, the admins from both servers are engaging in petty kindergarten-style flame-wars, taunts, mud-slinging that would have gotten normal players banned under ordinary circumstances. It seems that sanity has taken a vacation from both places, and I would recommend playing on Evol or Land of Fire, or maybe something completely different, until things settle down and people decide to behave themselves and enforce the rules of civil behavior.

I am starting to think that neither TMWC nor Platyna deserve the server player files, and that the players should elect a new set of admins that will avoid starting anymore senseless crap and will honestly try to unite the community, heal the wounds, and encourage meaningful content development that the players can notice and enjoy.

From a quasi-legal (I'm not a lawyer, and I doubt anyone here has the money for an international business court case), both the forum data (all these posts) and the server data (player saves) are not covered by GPL. Every group or committee running this project, from Elven, Bjorn, Jax, Platyna, GHP, TMWC, etc was irresponsible not to ever make a constitution clearly defining the ownership of those files and rules for changing admins and hosting, so now we have this kaka-storm as a thank-you for that awesome level of foresight.

The only clear thing is that Elvenprogrammer owns the domain name themanaworld.org. One could make a sort-of legal argument that Platyna owns the files, since she hosted the software on her machine for years, in the absence of any formal agreement, contract, or constitution. She claims furthermore that Elven and Bjorn abandoned the project and their stake in it, and have only come back recently, to settle accounts with her, and because there is now actually something tangible over which to fight, which wasn't the case when they left.

Elven, Bjorn, on the other hand could (and likely have) denied Platyna's claims, and could still make a claim to the project, as original propagators of it. Elven, in particular, has some legal muscle regarding this, since he owns the domain name themanaworld.org, which was used as TMW's official domain for all these years.

Lately, I hear that the project belongs to those who develop its content, which sounds awesome cool in theory, but in practice means that any rogue developer that makes a substantial improvement or change in the future and remains active, can then lay a claim to ownership.

Heck, while we're at it, let's say that the project belongs to the community, and hold nominations and then elections for our admins, in the same way as we do for GMs.

I don't really know who the project belongs to, and I'm starting not to care anymore, either. All of have effectively destroyed the dream of OSS that it would be a grass-roots empowering and community-owned wonderful happy utopia. Instead, you have found a way to make it filthy, sneaky, dirty, nasty, just like the real "law of the jungle" corporate world, to which this was supposed to stand in stark contrast.

Seriously, with all this nastiness from all sides, how are any of you better than each other? How are any of you better than a pay project from the corporate world. There used to be a credo here, that you worked with everyone, even if you had differences with them. Maybe it was always a lie, carefully hidden, but now it is a lie, laid bare for all to see. You should all (admins) be ashamed of yourselves for destroying such a nice thing and for failing to make a constitution that would have removed all this ambiguity in the first place.

I think we need to start over. i am disgusted by what I see here now from all the people in power.
At least a single post that makes sense. I completely agree with you.

Anyway the fight is useless since, as you said, none "team" would be able to pay an international court case, and anyway no one clearly owns the files. The only solutions seems to be, either to reunite the community, which seems pretty impossible from our currently babyness-behaving admins, or to accept that there's now two servers.

I'm quite sad to agree with that other point too (because admins or i don't know which kind of people that has responsabilities shouldn't behave this how they currently do), but the only war-end solution seems to throw all of our current admins to get fresh ones that would certainly handle their job way better than they (currently) do.

That's surely pretty undoable as players have nearly none rights. Though, it makes me laugh a lot when they say : " We need developpers, people that could create new content ! "... My question is : " What will you do if you keep or get developpers but you have no users (players), to use your content ? ". The answers seems pretty clear to me : it will simply be the end of TMW, and nothing more.
Keep paying attention to users, which are in the end, the only ones that allows something to survive and to expanse. This applies not only on computing-things, but also on everything else on our Earth.

Edit : Orthograph...
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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Post by Matt » 27 May 2013, 18:21

Since this game and its content is open source everyone can create a server.
That the oldest and "official" server has the most users is no suprise.

Other than the "owning files because someone hosted it for some years" part I agree with blackrazor.


It is a shame, TMW was real fun back in the day. Oh well.
Last edited by Matt on 28 May 2013, 21:31, edited 1 time in total.
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