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Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 02:27
by mistergrey
I'll admit, I did misunderstand you at first. I hope it's understood that I don't speak for the TMWC group when I say this... but I could care less who is the top admin, so long as they actually respond to the people under them when they should, and don't go off on a power trip. I watched very carefully when this move happened for that very thing, as I know power does have the tendency to corrupt quickly... as of yet, I've seen no such abuse personally.

I can't really imagine who could be nominated for such a thing though, to be bluntly honest: If you think the GM polls have been hot debate issues, both in public polls and the GHP discussions after a poll passes... those would be nothing compared to the flamewar a head admin vote would stir up. That's not even to say it's a terrible idea... just that, it will make things much, much worse, before there's any chance of that making any improvements. At the least, I wouldn't consider it unless a large number of the players/others in this community also thought such a thing would be beneficial. If it seemed it would be, I'd be all for it. But... not just to respond to one or two who feel dissatisfied about how the server split has gone down. It would have to be a majority, I would think, to truly represent the community's wishes.

In short... I don't care, but I don't see the point unless most of the community wants that. More people in power just raises the potential for bigger internal issues later.

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 02:28
by blackrazor
o11c wrote: Here's the thing: everyone already agreed that there was someone in that position: ElvenProgrammer. And "everyone" includes Platyna, up til the point that she realized that Elven had turned against her.

The procedure for legitimately moving moving the datafiles again in the future is exactly the same as it was this time: first get a consensus among the active admins, developers, and GMs; then get Elven's agreement. The fact that Elven is no longer active as a developer does not mean he no longer cares about or looks out for TMW (however, he is certainly sick of this drama). He still maintains http://themanaworld.it semi-regularly, and some of us suspect he still plays under a pseudonym (I have not checked the database, and will not because I respect him too much).
If that is the case, then it should be in writing. If Elven is "top admin for life" or until he passes that torch on, then it needs to be clearly written officially as such. It seems that it wasn't written, and Platyna got to assuming that she was the top-admin and no one disgreed with her and told her it was Elven, certainly not publicly at least. Even the TMWC lists Elven only as an advisor and not as top-admin.

Since everyone invokes the name of Elven (kind of like god, this is easy to do because he's not there, not active at least) but still makes the effective top-admin someone else, it seems most prudent to have an elected top-admin that is active and elected, going forward. Heck, if you can reach Elven, you could ask him what he thinks of this idea, too. I am thinking of ways to unite the community. Platyna, o11c, Jen, Frost, Jax, even Elven are all free to be nominated and run in actual elections. You can hold any other position in the community and still be top-admin by election, and since there would be term-lengths, this responsibility would not likely weigh on any one person forever, but the torch could be passed on, democratically. Seriously, what is wrong with this idea as a way to reunite the community and move us democratically forward?

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 02:42
by blackrazor
mistergrey wrote:I'll admit, I did misunderstand you at first. I hope it's understood that I don't speak for the TMWC group when I say this... but I could care less who is the top admin, so long as they actually respond to the people under them when they should, and don't go off on a power trip. I watched very carefully when this move happened for that very thing, as I know power does have the tendency to corrupt quickly... as of yet, I've seen no such abuse personally.

I can't really imagine who could be nominated for such a thing though, to be bluntly honest: If you think the GM polls have been hot debate issues, both in public polls and the GHP discussions after a poll passes... those would be nothing compared to the flamewar a head admin vote would stir up. That's not even to say it's a terrible idea... just that, it will make things much, much worse, before there's any chance of that making any improvements. At the least, I wouldn't consider it unless a large number of the players/others in this community also thought such a thing would be beneficial. If it seemed it would be, I'd be all for it. But... not just to respond to one or two who feel dissatisfied about how the server split has gone down. It would have to be a majority, I would think, to truly represent the community's wishes.

In short... I don't care, but I don't see the point unless most of the community wants that. More people in power just raises the potential for bigger internal issues later.
I agree with you that the majority have to want an election, or it makes no sense to have one. Either way, whatever they chose, if they are given a choice, to vote or not to vote, and if voting then whom to chose, they will at least get the government they deserve.

I was just floating the idea in the thread especially provided for brainstorming our way out of this mess.

We all speak on behalf of the community. We are all a part of the community, and every time we type or act here, it has the potential to effect us all, in theory. But to be clear, I do not represent a specific group or a specific interest, and my only goal all along has been to seek a way to reunite the community. My preferred tools are transparency, accountability, and democracy. I don't care about power, I don't crave it, and to be clear, i would not run in any elections. I merely suggest them as a way of moving forward by having a truly accountable top-admin.

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 03:18
by Len
Why do we need to complicate things so? Developers control the means of production, as such the TMW Committee controls TMW no matter who is the ultimate admin.

Image

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 03:20
by Big Crunch
Personally I see no reason to have final arbiter. As purely a player I had no concern with who platyna was, freeyorp, jax, devs any of them. I just wanted to play. I wanted new content and that's all. One thing that we don't think of is that we all sit here with a puffed up feeling of importance trying to figure out who should lord over the project and the players for the most part, don't give a feces. They want a distraction from school, work, parents, spouses, life et all. I would suggest we all just plan stuff, make stuff and release stuff. Hell, the only reason I'm part of tmwc is because I won a popularity contest. I have no appreciable skills in the realm of development or administrative server stuff. The only thing I bring to the committee is the players ear. I play on one alt or another nearly everyday. You know what I hear about all this crap? Nothing. The only people that care are those involved or the ones WE have swayed to care.

BC

Edit. To prove this point go online and find one name you don't know and ask them about the drama. If they aren't an alt, they couldn't care less unless the content stops coming.

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 04:21
by GARRETTtheGREAT
Big Crunch wrote:To prove this point go online and find one name you don't know and ask them about the drama. If they aren't an alt, they couldn't care less unless the content stops coming.
I'd guarantee you're right about players not caring, but I don't think this proves your point.

It's a catch 22 of sorts; they'd probably care if they knew enough about what is/was/will be/what could be/what won't be/etc/etc/etc going on, but since they don't know what's going on they don't care. If they thought their personal or game data was at risk, if the project/server was at risk of closing doors forever, etc., they would become a lot more concerned really quickly. I'm not saying any of these things have ever been true or will ever be true, but isn't this the heart of the discussion; What did/could happen with the TMWC or what did/could have happened with the GHP that is a threat to the players and the existence of the game as we know it?

Not to be any more argumentative than I have to be, but it's the prerogative of the players to choose ignorance, but it's the responsibility of the TMW leaders, whoever they may be, to proactively protect the game. The players couldn't care less, not because this discussion is not important, but because it's not their responsibility to be concerned.

As for the TMW government, there will always be people who want one thing and some who want another. I suppose the nice part about governing bodies is that they can be overthrown as many times as necessary until enough people are complacent with it. I don't think the concept of the TMWC is any better or worse than the concept of the old system (they're really pretty similar), but what system actually works better is what's important and only time will tell us that.

Edit: wording

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 04:22
by Sanity
Some facts:

1) the domain name will never point to platyna's ip address
2) the majority of developers (in fact I think all of them) have stated that they will not work in one team as the old hoster
3) everyone is happy with the move except the annoying female dog, wolf, fox or otter and a bunch of her lackies, as can be seen by server onlines

Those are facts and there is no way around them. If you wanna female dog, wolf, fox or otter, cry, ask for certificate of incorporation or whatever other feces, keep crying and doing so. Those three things are ones that matter and there is no way around them.

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 06:50
by Frost
TMW is naturally attracted to improvements and greater value, and naturally moves away from low-value situations.

If you think someone should be replaced, go right ahead. Show that you're capable, willing, and reliable. Offer something better than what we have. If people aren't listening, improve your value.

Any idiot can complain on the Internet, and many do. To get respect, bring value, not volume.

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 13:21
by blackrazor
Frost wrote:TMW is naturally attracted to improvements and greater value, and naturally moves away from low-value situations.

If you think someone should be replaced, go right ahead. Show that you're capable, willing, and reliable. Offer something better than what we have. If people aren't listening, improve your value.

Any idiot can complain on the Internet, and many do. To get respect, bring value, not volume.
Interesting post. What about loyalty, comraderie, cliques, love, friendship, synergy, karma? I sincerely doubt it's all about min-maxing your value.

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 14:07
by veryape
blackrazor wrote: Interesting post. What about loyalty, comraderie, cliques, love, friendship, synergy, karma? I sincerely doubt it's all about min-maxing your value.
As I see it this is what the move really was about. The GMs, DEVs and admins did not believe that they worked as a team and that their input was considered by Platyna, who would rather just listen to her own logic instead of other peoples input.

They did not feel any loyalty, comraderie, love friendship or synergy. They decided that to get the project back on track they needed to move away from that and to be able to form a good community for the game to go forward. This is at least how I understood their reasoning about the move and the main goal with the move.

Also as I understood it Platyna was offered a place in the TMWc but turned it down because she wanted the same old position she held before rather than the one vote that counts equal as all the others votes.

I am sorry that she didn't want to take the step down from the almighty throne and I think that all this flaming is only bad for the game. I would really love it if the contributors and devs could concentrate on making new content instead of getting caught up in this mess.

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 15:20
by Frost
blackrazor wrote:
Frost wrote:TMW is naturally attracted to improvements and greater value, and naturally moves away from low-value situations.....
Interesting post. What about loyalty, comraderie, cliques, love, friendship, synergy, karma? I sincerely doubt it's all about min-maxing your value.
An organization makes decisions that further its own interests. Leaders are expected to make decisions in the best interest of the organization, not themselves. Unless those qualities you mention bring value to that organization, they are indeed irrelevant.

For example, I would not suggest someone as admin merely because they are:
  • Someone to whom I owe a personal favor.
  • Someone I have known for years.
  • Someone in my exclusive social group.
  • A love interest.
  • A personal friend.
  • Someone I work well with personally.
  • Someone who has a hard life and deserves a nice title.
To get on the right side of the value equation for TMW:
  • Create graphics.
  • Write exciting or funny or intriguing stories for the game (quests or NPCs or just history.)
  • Create quests.
  • Create maps.
  • Make technical (source code or network or OS-level) improvements.
  • Improve the wiki.
  • Provide some other useful service.
  • Help people who do the above to be more effective.
  • Demonstrate you are reliable.
Not all valuable work is added to the game, but that is one good measure. If you provide value, people will listen to you.

At an organization level, it is exactly about value -- and not "min/maxing" but simply "maxing."

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 16:14
by blackrazor
Frost wrote:
blackrazor wrote:
Frost wrote:TMW is naturally attracted to improvements and greater value, and naturally moves away from low-value situations.....
Interesting post. What about loyalty, comraderie, cliques, love, friendship, synergy, karma? I sincerely doubt it's all about min-maxing your value.
An organization makes decisions that further its own interests. Leaders are expected to make decisions in the best interest of the organization, not themselves. Unless those qualities you mention bring value to that organization, they are indeed irrelevant.

For example, I would not suggest someone as admin merely because they are:
  • Someone to whom I owe a personal favor.
  • Someone I have known for years.
  • Someone in my exclusive social group.
  • A love interest.
  • A personal friend.
  • Someone I work well with personally.
  • Someone who has a hard life and deserves a nice title.
To get on the right side of the value equation for TMW:
  • Create graphics.
  • Write exciting or funny or intriguing stories for the game (quests or NPCs or just history.)
  • Create quests.
  • Create maps.
  • Make technical (source code or network or OS-level) improvements.
  • Improve the wiki.
  • Provide some other useful service.
  • Help people who do the above to be more effective.
  • Demonstrate you are reliable.
Not all valuable work is added to the game, but that is one good measure. If you provide value, people will listen to you.

At an organization level, it is exactly about value -- and not "min/maxing" but simply "maxing."
The values I mentioned are human values, and they often inspire humans to give 110% and to remain committed to a project or goal, even when logic tells them otherwise. Simply being proficient at tasks? We might as well be AI Automatons or Borg.

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 16:24
by blackrazor
Len wrote:Why do we need to complicate things so? Developers control the means of production, as such the TMW Committee controls TMW no matter who is the ultimate admin.
History proves your statement incorrect. For the vast majority of modern MMO production and management, it is the investor / owner that controls the means of production and runs the show. Don't get me wrong, I highly value both developers and players, but the way things usually work out runs counter to your claim.

Even in TMW, when Platyna paid the bills (hardware and bandwidth), she called the shots. This is the same reason people were so concerned about who the new host would be, because usually (albeit not always), that goes hand in hand with a lot of power. Now, the TMWC has managed to exile it's old boss, and the new host doesn't want to be boss (afaik), so there exists the opportunity to do something radical here. But instead of just making the developers in charge, it would be nice if we tried something truly transformational, and shared power with the developers and the community of players, in the manner that I suggested a bit earlier in this thread.

Basically, I propose to build a democratic society out of this game. Heck, it works for first world countries, so maybe it can work for us too. The rest of the gaming world seems stuck in the medieval feudal system, so my suggestion could be something really interesting that could have an impact well beyond this project. Wouldn't it be really cool to try and be a part of something like that?

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 17:10
by Len
blackrazor wrote: History proves your statement incorrect. For the vast majority of modern MMO production and management, it is the investor / owner that controls the means of production and runs the show.
That is an illusion, nothing really stops the employees from walking off (or buying out the company) and doing it themselves. But such a thing involves risk and the use of their own capital, so its near impossible to get everyone to agree to it.

The Democratic system is a poor designer, BTW! As the more people who have a say (particularly if its not their area), the better the chances of the end product turning out bland and uninspired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 5twc#at=49

Re: The official server-move flamewar topic

Posted: 28 May 2013, 17:31
by blackrazor
Len wrote:
blackrazor wrote: History proves your statement incorrect. For the vast majority of modern MMO production and management, it is the investor / owner that controls the means of production and runs the show.
That is an illusion, nothing really stops the employees from walking off (or buying out the company) and doing it themselves. But such a thing involves risk and the use of their own capital, so its near impossible to get everyone to agree to it.

The Democratic system is a poor designer, BTW! As the more people who have a say (particularly if its not their area), the better the chances of the end product turning out bland and uninspired.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 5twc#at=49
You contradict yourself. It's not an illusion. What stops employees from walking off is their desire to eat, or in the case of volunteers, to keep doing something that fulfills them. And as you so aptly put it, doing it themselves involves risk and the use of their own capital, so it's near impossible. Those who take those risks, are the ones that in practice, usually get to control the means of production. I'm not debating whether the system is fair or lovely, just that it usually exists as such. And exchanging a monarchy for an aristocracy is hardly exciting or bold.

Regarding democracy, you are certainly correct. But I think Sir Winston Churchill had a point when he said: "Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."