The official server flamewar topic

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blackrazor
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 28 Jan 2016, 23:35

@veryape The TMW Server Software is opensource by GPL; the data generated by the software is NOT, again by GPL's own licence. It is mindbogglingly simple. GHP were voluntary employees of Platyna, not equals to her. That is why they left; to make their own organization where they were in charge. They were free to "take" as many copies of the opensource software as they wanted, as is anyone else. The data however is different, and was the property of Platyna. See the difference? And no, players do not own their data, but yes, they are made free to delete it, which is not the definition of ownership. The definition of ownership is in the GPL licence they chose to use, go read it sometime. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

Elven is the owner of the DNS "themanaworld.org", and he can point it wherever he chooses. That has nothing to do with ownership of the data for any piece of software. Two separate things, entirely.

So Wushin, the definition of stealing to you is if they will sue you in court? I guess to you, torrenting copyrighted movies is 100% legal, until they sue you?
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by wushin » 29 Jan 2016, 00:08

Yes, bring a court case. Watch it not stand up in court. I'm suggesting if anyone thinks they can bring a case against TMW to do it.

We've established "Ownership" via the Open Source accepted methods.
Eric Raymond wrote:The second way is to have ownership of the project handed to you by the previous owner (this is sometimes known as `passing the baton'). It is well understood in the community that project owners have a duty to pass projects to competent successors when they are no longer willing or able to invest needed time in development or maintenance work.
The project was handed over to us by Elvenprogrammer, the founder, and their next closest heir, Bjorn. Both had moved on to other projects and had lost interest in maintaining TMW. Platyna "Hosted the project". Anything dealing with TMW belonged to the project. When Platyna says "It's mine." It just goes to show how selfish and controlling she was.
Eric Raymond wrote:The third way to acquire ownership of a project is to observe that it needs work and the owner has disappeared or lost interest. If you want to do this, it is your responsibility to make the effort to find the owner. If you don't succeed, then you may announce in a relevant place (such as a Usenet newsgroup dedicated to the application area) that the project appears to be orphaned, and that you are considering taking responsibility for it.
Since the move, TMW .org has moved the ball forward. New content, quest logs, numerous critical bug fixes that crash a server, establishing TMW as a non-profit, making a board, grand socialism in general, etc. We have plenty of players online and have continue to create new devs, gms, and admins, etc.

- "Homesteading: The Noosphere", The cathedral & the bazaar: musings on Linux and open source by an accidental revolutionary, Eric Raymond - O'Reilly - 1999, (http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/homest ... 01s04.html)

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SPI Legitimacy Commits/Works Produced
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 29 Jan 2016, 00:54

The previous owner was Platyna, not Elven. Elven was the original founder of the software, and probably never the owner of the data output by the eAthena-TMW Server Software. Even if he was at one time the owner, along with Bjorn and Ultramichy, the baton long already had been passed to Platyna, in an appropriate voluntary fashion, something you need to emulate, and not by means of clandestine expropriation in the middle of the night. So as Platyna was the previous owner, your negotiations needed to be with HER. This is a normal property concept, for example if I buy a used house, it is from the previous owner, not the original owner, if there have been a line of owners.

She didn't abandon the project either. She brought on board a group of voluntary employees over which she maintained absolute authority, and called them the GHP. They were active in the project on her behalf, as proven by the fact that they were the ones who took a copy of the data.

So far, all of the arguments brought forth have been deflections (Elven, Bjorn, DNS, SPI), wishful thinking (the players own the data), or arrogant bravado (sue me!). The only argument that matters are the articles of ownership contained in the GPL copyleft contract under which this project was assigned.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by prsm » 29 Jan 2016, 01:23

Assuming you are right, blackrazor, which I admantly think you are wrong, and the game went back to Platyna, which I hope it never does. You have killed the game! Her server hasn't been up for a long time.

Forget the legalities of this, which we have gone full circle on 4 times.

Her server is toast, dead, tits up, cooked, not working. Is that what you want, the death of the game?

Food for thought.

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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 29 Jan 2016, 03:33

Nice try prsm. I didn't kill anything. The people that stole the data from Platyna built the whole foundation on very shaky ground. The people who currently run the project tempt fate by continually thumbing their noses at Platyna and her supporters while daring to be sued in court. Bad form. Bad karma. Maybe try actually talking and negotiating with Platyna instead? And try being more humble in policing your ill gotten gains. All of that might help. Food for thought.

I guess it's up to Platyna. The fact that you don't like her, but you very much like her property and claim to make improvements to it, does not make it yours. Imagine if someone did that with your house or car or company. How would you feel? Do you want to live in that kind of world?
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by prsm » 29 Jan 2016, 03:37

So for the record, you would rather send us to a dead server..... Interesting
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 29 Jan 2016, 03:45

prsm wrote:So for the record, you would rather send us to a dead server..... Interesting
For the record, I would rather you negotiate with Platyna like adults. She is perfectly willing to work with people she doesn't like, for the sake of the project, like an adult. Why aren't you willing to do the same by her?
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by prsm » 29 Jan 2016, 03:56

We did, aren't you following all the posts? We invited her into TMWC, she said no, she said we are too power hungry and she had to be in charge. She would not be one vote, she had to be the vote!

Geeze blackrazor, after all these posts.......

Call me out when her server is actually working. Till that, you want to kil the game.

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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 29 Jan 2016, 04:23

prsm wrote: Forget the legalities of this, which we have gone full circle on 4 times.

Prsm
It's not for me to forget. It will be a Damocles Sword hanging over your heads for all time, because that is how you set it up by virtue of your actions and choices.

The reason this keeps going full circle is the universe's way of telling you that you have done a very dark deed in the pilfering of Platyna's property, and this issue will keep hounding you, because you refuse to make peace with Platyna for what you did to her.
prsm wrote: We did, aren't you following all the posts? We invited her into TMWC, she said no, she said we are too power hungry and she had to be in charge. She would not be one vote, she had to be the vote!
Platyna believes the project needs a leader, one who is ultimately responsible for it. Not some nebulous mass of leadership that makes decisions but tries to take no responsibility for anything when things go wrong. It's always the fault of some other part of the nebula, it seems. Well, I think Platyna's vision of leadership makes sense and I support her in it. Anyways it's her data, so it should be her choice. She's willing to work with you, but as she is the data owner, on her terms, not yours. But I shouldn't speak for what Platyna wants at this point, she is perfectly able to speak for herself.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by wushin » 29 Jan 2016, 07:46

blackrazor wrote:Platyna believes the project needs a leader, one who is ultimately responsible for it.
Yeah, that's why .net has been offline since: Offline (since 22 Nov 2015 18:24:36) and hasn't had anyone on the forums. Nor Updates. People don't even ask for the server to be put online again.

Plus they couldn't even set-up Php correctly http://server.themanaworld.net/status.php
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 29 Jan 2016, 08:05

@Wushin Your observations have nothing to do with her claim. Pure deflection. Politics would suit you well.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by veryape » 29 Jan 2016, 10:17

blackrazor wrote:@veryape The TMW Server Software is opensource by GPL; the data generated by the software is NOT, again by GPL's own licence. It is mindbogglingly simple. GHP were voluntary employees of Platyna, not equals to her. That is why they left; to make their own organization where they were in charge. They were free to "take" as many copies of the opensource software as they wanted, as is anyone else. The data however is different, and was the property of Platyna. See the difference? And no, players do not own their data, but yes, they are made free to delete it, which is not the definition of ownership. The definition of ownership is in the GPL licence they chose to use, go read it sometime. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

Elven is the owner of the DNS "themanaworld.org", and he can point it wherever he chooses. That has nothing to do with ownership of the data for any piece of software. Two separate things, entirely.

So Wushin, the definition of stealing to you is if they will sue you in court? I guess to you, torrenting copyrighted movies is 100% legal, until they sue you?
I think that i have come to another conclusion than you have about what themanaworld was and is. The project has never been OWNED by Platyna, it was hosted by her - but not her project alone. Because she ran the server she could call the shots. The team developing the game and administrating it was mainly other people. She might have started the server and thus have a instrumental role in the game being around, that is for sure. No one is saying anything against this, as I said earlier: She is one of the first people to go into the hall of fame in this game/community.

However I think that the project as a whole and the data generated is NOT owner by her alone since she isn't the project - it is owned by the project, if the project splits - both parts have equal claims to the "data". If someone does want their data deleted from the server they can opt out by deleting their chars and continue playing on Platynas server - that has always been the case.

As Prsm rightly pointed out this argument has been going in spirals. I think that what we mainly disagree on is if the project = Platyna or the project = the people involved in the project. My stance is the latter for the reasons posted above.

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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Altus Institute » 29 Jan 2016, 10:36

Platyna, on several point the tmwc is right.
But like everythings they missed everything.

Lets start from the begining.
Courts doesnt like punks, you should know it.

Dont worry about all of this.
Things turns dark, well, lets bring some light in.
You are on a public forum, even if they are not happy about this they cant do nothing to ban you, if its the case you can do something, if not just be patient.
But dont forget, playing punk will not help you.
Hope that you have understand this.

To be totally clear with you, im not supporting you.
I read some post to well understand all of this mess.
And im not supporting wushin too.
Im a part of tmw community and I dont like arrogants who insult others believing they are in charge, so nothing cant happens to them. They just dreamin.
Im not affiliate with anger.
Im not affiliate with rage.
Im not affiliate with killing intent.
Im not affiliate with hate.
Im not affifiate with darkness.
Im not affiliate with devils.
Im not affiliate with sins.

Dont jump on conclusion, you dont even know the real meanings of these words.

If i well understood you were affiliate with all of these guys, isnt it?
You were a bunch of friends doing a project, driven by the same goal.
I read you Platyna, you talk about these guys like thieves, because you think that you was stabbacked in your trust, and they took everythings from you.
Is it correct?
Let me be clear about the situation Platyna.
Someone who belongs to a gang, a team or others, cant deny the fact that they was driven by the same spirit, call it goal if you prefer.
For example, some people who are agree to stole something, after the act, someone of them cant go to a court and say, these guys abuse my trust, they didnt give me my part, they stole me.
Everybody will laugh about it.
Because a thief cant complain about others thieves...
But if you come to a court telling you make a mistake, and you want complain about some people who abuse your trust and they drive you into some ugly things that you regret now. Something can be done.
Because you was with these guys, means you were agree with them.
And their behaviour was yours.

Now time have passed, you went through sickness, and depression.
Do you have understand what happend, or do you still looking for revenge?

With what kind of people do you want to be affiliate now?
That is an important point.
To forgive those with whom you shared what you thought to be important for you. And by the way to forgive yourself.
To apologize to people you abused.
Read me well Platyna.
You matched with these guys, in a way or another, even if you think no.
And if you think no, you are a liar to yourself.
You think you dont want to stole what belongs to someone else?
You just forget that you stolen someone at a moment of your life and you forget it, Blackrazor called it karma.
If you understand this, you can start new things.
And you will retrieve new fresh data from tmwc.
read my post about having my own server, they moved it here. All in was well explain, read it please.

But if you come with hate, anger, revenge, you have already lose everything.
See wushin post, he is right about some things.
But he is still dream, lets him dream.
Platyna, now what you can do?
Can you drive a new project?
Can you launch a call to ask people help?
All depends about what you think now, and what kind of people you want around you now.
For the moment lets them enjoy their time.
If you want to enjoy yours, make your mind clear about all these trash.
Its my advice for now.

Lets me tell you a little story.
There was a priest who met a guy, a homeless.
He invited this guy at his home.
He gave to this guy dinner and a bed.
Later, he heard some knock on the door.
It was the policemen with the homeless.
The policemen tell to the priest that they found him with all this money and gold on him.
And they knew that belongs to the church.
The priest tell to the policemen, no, you can release him, i gave him everything.
I knew he was homeless.
The policemen are gone.
And the homeless started to cry in priest's arms.
And the priest tell to the homeless that he was the true treasure, money and gold have no value but the homeless's life was more valuable at his eyes.

Make your mind about what you want Platyna.
They stole you?
Is it the end for you?
If you change your mind you can meet great ppl who can help you to do a better project.
Because they can only meet people who match with their mind, or people like me for whom life is more valuable over others things.
And for the others in the end they will meet.....the wall.

What you will do?
What thoughts you want to guide you?
Because thoughts brings act.
If you want to act properly, think about things properly.
Its simple.

So, i need to know about what kind of action you want to do now.
So read well my post.
Dont be hurry.
And read it again if you need it.
Waiting for your answer...take your time.

Have a nice day
19:24:32 wushin So, can you do something?
19:24:52 Altus I can do nothing.
19:25:07 wushin So you are highly capable of doing nothing?
19:25:20 Altus yerp =D
19:25:31 wushin Crap, im only highly capable of doing something...=/
19:25:34 cassy Its ok wu-wu, we all needs to start somewhere...
19:25:43 deepthought wtf
19:25:46 wushin .....
19:25:52 cassy *pokes* deepthought
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 29 Jan 2016, 12:51

@veryape I never said Platyna owned the project. The eAthena-TMW server software is licensed under GPL. Anybody can have a copy. Anybody that possesses a copy of the software does own the DATA it produces running on their server. Platyna met this criteria. She was the sole owner / queen / dictator of Platinum (a specific server running a copy of eAthena-TMW server software) and anybody else affiliated with Platinum was either working under her or playing the game there. Thus she did indeed own that specific set of DATA. That data was copied without her permission by employees of hers that no longer wanted to work under her, so they took this copy that they stole (that is what "copied without permission" means) and they brought it here where it continues to be used to this day, without Platyna's permission and even over her objections.

Tell me, does owner / queen / dictator sound like "host" to you? It doesn't to me. I'll bet Madcamel or OVH never were considered owner / queen (king) / dictator, and this is an important distinction, because it defines ownership of the DATA. Not the project. Not the DNS. Not the software. Not the people. Only the DATA is to what I am referring. Madcamel and OVH were / are hosts, hosting on behalf of TMWC, so they don't own the data. Platyna was owner / queen / dictator of the TMW server running on Platinum specifically, and thus she owned that specific set of DATA that it produced. Who decides this? Well it is decided by the GPL licence under which the project and the software were assigned. It's in the statutes of ownership defined by the GPL copyleft.

Look at this post, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19511 where Scall says that TMW-BR is coming back. Now whomever is owning / running that BR server is the owner of the specific DATA it produces, and not the TMWC nor anyone else. But that BR owner does not own the project, nor the software, he only owns the DATA it produces on the server he runs. And that was the exact same truth regarding Platyna and her TMW server of Platinum. I hope this helps clear it up.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by veryape » 29 Jan 2016, 13:04

blackrazor wrote:@veryape I never said Platyna owned the project. The eAthena-TMW server software is licensed under GPL. Anybody can have a copy. Anybody that possesses a copy of the software does own the DATA it produces running on their server. Platyna met this criteria. She was the sole owner / queen / dictator of Platinum (a specific server running a copy of eAthena-TMW server software) and anybody else affiliated with Platinum was either working under her or playing the game there. Thus she did indeed own that specific set of DATA. That data was copied without her permission by employees of hers that no longer wanted to work under her, so they took this copy that they stole (that is what "copied without permission" means) and they brought it here where it continues to be used to this day, without Platyna's permission and even over her objections.

Tell me, does owner / queen / dictator sound like "host" to you? It doesn't to me. I'll bet Madcamel or OVH never were considered owner / queen (king) / dictator, and this is an important distinction, because it defines ownership of the DATA. Not the project. Not the DNS. Not the software. Not the people. Only the DATA is to what I am referring. Madcamel and OVH were / are hosts, hosting on behalf of TMWC, so they don't own the data. Platyna was owner / queen / dictator of the TMW server running on Platinum specifically, and thus she owned that specific set of DATA that it produced. Who decides this? Well it is decided by the GPL licence under which the project and the software were assigned. It's in the statutes of ownership defined by the GPL copyleft.

Look at this post, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19511 where Scall says that TMW-BR is coming back. Now whomever is owning / running that BR server is the owner of the specific DATA it produces, and not the TMWC nor anyone else. But that BR owner does not own the project, nor the software, he only owns the DATA it produces on the server he runs. And that was the exact same truth regarding Platyna and her TMW server of Platinum. I hope this helps clear it up.
As I understand it (I might be wrong) my conclusion is that the others were her collaborators, she wanted to keep a structure of leadership that they thought were contraproductive - so they split with the data that the "project" owned, they have a equal claim to that data imo.

If i consider myself the king of tmw does that make me the king? What about what other people consider me to be? If everyone is what they themself consider that they are then we have a major problem - because I don't think that those views are mergeable into a coherent view.

And with the regards to the tmwbr comment.. yeah RUNNING the project is key here, who considers themselves owning something because they were hosting/forum moderators/artists is a different matter imho.

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