The official server flamewar topic

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Re: Platinum moved to 3x10 Gbit line with new disks and memo

Post by SriNitayanda » 31 Jan 2016, 09:38

blackrazor wrote: Grow up already and start acting like adults.
Are you calling us names again? didn't our whole conversation started because of names calling?
Why don't you direct Platyna's attitude?
I won't stop 4144 if he wants to do it.
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Re: Platinum moved to 3x10 Gbit line with new disks and memo

Post by blackrazor » 31 Jan 2016, 10:39

SriNitayanda wrote:
blackrazor wrote: Grow up already and start acting like adults.
Are you calling us names again? didn't our whole conversation started because of names calling?
Why don't you direct Platyna's attitude?
I won't stop 4144 if he wants to do it.
And that is exactly why the project needs a single responsible leader. So the current nebulous leadership mass cannot say: "It's not me, it's someone else responsible." At least with Platyna, the buck stopped with her, and we knew where to address ourselves to someone who was an adult and always made herself responsible for everything that ran on her Platinum server. With her it was never "I can't do it, it's someone else."; it was always: "I am responsible. And the answer is yes (or no)."
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 31 Jan 2016, 10:44

wushin wrote:
blackrazor wrote:Not the host
Exactly! Not Madcamel or OVH. But if the SOLE AUTHORITY also happens to be hosting, that is fine, at it was in Platyna's case. Being host doesn't preclude you from having SOLE AUTHORITY, it just doesn't define it. Being the dictator / queen / "cutter of hands" / final arbiter / etc. ... now THAT sounds like SOLE AUTHORITY to me, and that was Platyna on Platinum.

Really, you are being very disingenuous to pretend otherwise, everyone knew she was (and still is) the boss of Platinum, and you only try to reframe the obvious now, because it spoils your narrative of who you really are for taking and profiting from her data.

So let me ask you again. Who is the sole authority of Platinum right now? Platyna? Elven? Wushin? TMWC? It's Platyna, obviously, right? Well, nothing has changed in her status between then and now, so if she is the sole authority of Platinum now, then she was the sole authority then also. Which clearly means the DATA on PLATINUM was and still is HERS. That is why o11c and Frost had to SNEAK the data off her server. You don't have to sneak that which belongs to you. You sneak that which belongs to someone else, because if they catch you, you are screwed.

As a fun hypothetical, let's just say that Platyna had gotten wind of o11c's and Frost's sneaky little plans, before they had a chance to execute them. What do you think would have happened? Duh, it's obvious, right? Their access to the data would have been revoked by Platyna, and she probably would have learned her lesson of trusting other humans, and kept access to the data for herself. Keep in mind, Frost and o11c didn't have data access in order to take it, they had access as employees for the sole purpose of doing their jobs, such as pushing completed development onto the live server. All of this tells you one simple obvious thing. o11c and Frost did not have legitimacy in what they took, because they had to sneak it off and if caught, they would have been stopped by the server admin (Platyna), like criminal hackers. Chew on that fun fact for a bit, while you keep telling yourself how good you are in your actions and choices.
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Re: Platinum moved to 3x10 Gbit line with new disks and memo

Post by SriNitayanda » 31 Jan 2016, 11:02

blackrazor wrote:Things were better here for many months after o11c left. Everyone was careful to keep within their bounds and respect their limits. And I had only good things to say about it, too. But lately, things have taken a darker turn, with staff again acting outside their comfort zones. And similar reasons that o11c used to give are again bubbling to the surface. Things like blaming the community for not being more involved, or blaming us for not testing / seeing the changes, with really no regard to how the current system really reinforces a behavior of apathy except for a select few. Perhaps it's an unavoidable circle of behavior in humans. But really, it is nothing personal on my part, and I will point it out when I see it. I see that as my service to the community of players, with no disrespect intended.
I thought you were an advocate for division of powers and roles.
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Re: Platinum moved to 3x10 Gbit line with new disks and memo

Post by blackrazor » 31 Jan 2016, 11:17

SriNitayanda wrote:
blackrazor wrote:Things were better here for many months after o11c left. Everyone was careful to keep within their bounds and respect their limits. And I had only good things to say about it, too. But lately, things have taken a darker turn, with staff again acting outside their comfort zones. And similar reasons that o11c used to give are again bubbling to the surface. Things like blaming the community for not being more involved, or blaming us for not testing / seeing the changes, with really no regard to how the current system really reinforces a behavior of apathy except for a select few. Perhaps it's an unavoidable circle of behavior in humans. But really, it is nothing personal on my part, and I will point it out when I see it. I see that as my service to the community of players, with no disrespect intended.
I thought you were an advocate for division of powers and roles.
Yes I am. For employees. I'm also for a single strong leader who is responsible for when things go wrong. Your team is missing such a leader, and nebulous rulings (where it is always somebody else responsible) is the result. There is no final person anyone can go to in order to obtain a definitive ruling, instead we can be passed around like a hot potato forever because nobody wants to deal with it. You replaced a monarchy with a bureaucracy and this is only better for the bureaucrats.

Democracy, with actual elections, term limits, and recalls would be nice, but we all know that is never going to happen. So if democracy isn't an option, and I have to choose between monarchy and bureaucracy, it's a hard choice actually, but I would choose monarchy because at least there is one clearly defined person who is responsible. Put the bureaucrats under her and let them eat cake with the rest of us.

P.S. GMs aren't democracy because they are elected for life, and anyways both Platyna and TMWC had GM elections subject to administrative ratification.
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Re: Platinum moved to 3x10 Gbit line with new disks and memo

Post by SriNitayanda » 31 Jan 2016, 11:46

4144 was always this authority you seek of his client, the devs collaborate with him, ask him to make changes etc... but he got the final word. even if its the official client its still a separate project, even back in 2012 it was the none official/official client, you didn't meet people with the old mana client.
We won't stop 4144 and we won't ask him to do it. How is it our responsibility to ask or to decide something that is between 4144 and Platyna? isn't Platyna avoiding responsibility by not asking herself?
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Re: Platinum moved to 3x10 Gbit line with new disks and memo

Post by blackrazor » 31 Jan 2016, 12:09

The server list shouldn't be controlled by the client. It should be part of the update server under project control.

P.S. The update server should serve the IPs of all available servers, not just the ones you like. It should be an additive (not destructive) update, so server IPs that the user enters into his client manually are also maintained.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by SudoPlatypus » 31 Jan 2016, 12:27

pateame wrote:
players do not own their data, but yes, they are made free to delete it
¿Can you please delete my forum's account?
You owned the forum's SQL database with my password hash on it, I think it's stealing and I don't want to be part of this anymore.

I never registered in .org forums, actually It took me like 2 years to realize what happened with TMW's DNS situation after I returned to the game just because I didn't read the flamewars. I dont want to waste my pixelarts with you anymore, so please also remove the bunny monster from your repos: I never said "Yes, push it on git and don't use it, just store it as garbage like the meway's duck"... It's a shame all the pixelartists are gone from your ego world, but now I understand them better.
Is the Bunny under gpl? I have those files and would like to use them.
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:arrow: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20549&p=157733#p157733
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by Altus Institute » 31 Jan 2016, 13:20

wushin wrote: The project, accounts and server existed before platinum and Platyna. Therefore the "Creator, Enterprise, Compiler, Funder, Decoder, Packager, Reader as owner, Licenser as Owner" of the data is the software or the project. Simpler terms: The Data's sole basis for existence is owed to the project. Thus the project owns the data and the consumers (players) own the data they use to play the game (accounts).

The "consumer" of the data is the player. (we obviously respect privacy laws of other countries and will purge your private data)
There is data and data in this case.
The data you talking about is the game itself, that we call the project.
The data Platyna talking about is all the players logs that you took.
In your case, of course the 'consumer' of the data is the player.
In Platyna case, its the purpose of the project she was running for.
So you still have the possibility to do a fork that you called 'data', but you have no right to copy the players data base for your own.
Because you did it without warning ppl, and even so, the ppl was there to play and dont take care about your warning that you moved their data from EU to USA.
And from server to server until the last one in time.
You did not asked to the players if they was agree to move their data, called logs(passwords, and emails) from EU to USA.
And you did not asked to the lead authority who own the project previously, Platyna, here, if she was agree to give you a copy of the players database, we talk here about players characters, passwords, and email.
These last, was a part of the project led by Platyna.
You took the data that you called project, but in fact its a fork.
See the others project listed in the manaplus client.
The players database belongs to a project not to another.
And you dont allow that, for example, the mana world (german version) take the players data from the mana world (brazil version).
You even warning people that they have to not use the same log and password on different server.
But you did it with the platinum server.
So there is no need to use this,
Paradigm of Ownership – Loshin (2002) alludes to the complexity of ownership issues by identifying the range of possible paradigms used to claim data ownership.
Because everything is already settled, by using the project and its forks and by the relationship they have with each other.

When i asked you about giving me a copy of the player database to let the player come in my new server, you didnt answer me because you knew about what we talking about.
So can you please stop talking about something else than the topics itself?

edit : where did you announced officially, on what forum, that you would take the entire data, including players data base?
19:24:32 wushin So, can you do something?
19:24:52 Altus I can do nothing.
19:25:07 wushin So you are highly capable of doing nothing?
19:25:20 Altus yerp =D
19:25:31 wushin Crap, im only highly capable of doing something...=/
19:25:34 cassy Its ok wu-wu, we all needs to start somewhere...
19:25:43 deepthought wtf
19:25:46 wushin .....
19:25:52 cassy *pokes* deepthought
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Re: Platinum moved to 3x10 Gbit line with new disks and memo

Post by Altus Institute » 31 Jan 2016, 14:01

SriNitayanda wrote:4144 was always this authority you seek of his client, the devs collaborate with him, ask him to make changes etc... but he got the final word. even if its the official client its still a separate project, even back in 2012 it was the none official/official client, you didn't meet people with the old mana client.
We won't stop 4144 and we won't ask him to do it. How is it our responsibility to ask or to decide something that is between 4144 and Platyna? isn't Platyna avoiding responsibility by not asking herself?
You should be aware that you changed the project meaning.
You changed it to be an game engine development instead a game.
You changed it when you dropped the only opensource client that allow people to play the mana world. Instead you took officially a copyrighted project name manaplus to access the manaworld game.
And you know that by inheritance that everything generated by a copyrighted thing become a copyrighted thing. Even for a free use.
So all this project is no more opensource.
Its copyrighted basis over opensource data.
So its private owner project, and everything can be used to be sell or for free use, but nobody can copy, modify or change a thing in.

And its for this sole reason that the mana world game is still opensource, to use stuff for free.
You can see this with the alliance between manaplus and chrome browser to play the manaworld.

Can we say that the tmcw changed the project purpose and goal?
No.
You can still do a fork but you cant have a client opensource to play it.
If you use manaplus client with your fork, the manaplus client owner can at anytime ask you all the data generated by his copyrighted client.
And because with all the changes made in the code source no other client is allowed to connect to the tmwc fork.
Even the old client cannot allow people to connect to Platinum server, because they changed the code for this purpose.

blackrazor wrote:The server list shouldn't be controlled by the client. It should be part of the update server under project control.

P.S. The update server should serve the IPs of all available servers, not just the ones you like. It should be an additive (not destructive) update, so server IPs that the user enters into his client manually are also maintained.
who care?
Its a private project.

Its for this sole reason that the manaplus client cant add non commercial, or for free use icon, to not be in infringement with copyrighted stuff.
If it was opensource, there will have no problem to add a non commercial or free use icon. Because the project purpose is opensource.
But its not the case anymore.
19:24:32 wushin So, can you do something?
19:24:52 Altus I can do nothing.
19:25:07 wushin So you are highly capable of doing nothing?
19:25:20 Altus yerp =D
19:25:31 wushin Crap, im only highly capable of doing something...=/
19:25:34 cassy Its ok wu-wu, we all needs to start somewhere...
19:25:43 deepthought wtf
19:25:46 wushin .....
19:25:52 cassy *pokes* deepthought
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Re: Platinum moved to 3x10 Gbit line with new disks and memo

Post by blackrazor » 31 Jan 2016, 19:30

SriNitayanda wrote:
blackrazor wrote: Grow up already and start acting like adults.
Are you calling us names again? didn't our whole conversation started because of names calling?
At least I didn't call you steaming piles, like Wushin did, but it seems you are okay with that, you say nothing in the forums about it, right? Oh but right, he's in power, just like you. Cool.

And Cassy, You, and Deepthought started the flamewar in the "3x10 Gbit line" topic, you even joked about you and Cassy starting it, but those stupidities get to stay, right? While Altus and I (and your responses specifically to us) are the only things to get moved. Must be nice to abuse power like that, right?

Figures you would get offended being asked to act like an adult. It hits close to the mark, doesn't it? Grow up already, and start acting like adults and treating this project as if you were adults.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by SriNitayanda » 31 Jan 2016, 20:08

Actually i preferred to solve it with wushin on a more personal level, just like i did with altus. with you i have no personal channel so i tried to do it here. but whatever suits your narrative.

P.S.
Qwerty Dragon wrote:Is the Bunny under gpl? I have those files and would like to use them.
Afaik, the licences are GPL or CC-BY-SA 3 by default when posting on the forums. but perhaps you need to confirm it with the artist now.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by veryape » 31 Jan 2016, 22:51

blackrazor wrote: When you use Google Search engine (or any search engine) you create data on searching patterns that is very valuable for targeted advertising, site rankings, interactive media distribution, etc. That data belongs to Google and you didn't sign anything for that to happen, nor can you stop them from collecting and using your data for their profit, unless you stop using search engines.

When you connect to and play on any multiplayer gaming server, your interactions create data on their servers that is very valuable to them for creating a dynamic proprietary unique environment. That data belongs to the authority running the gaming server even if you didn't sign anything for that to happen, nor can you stop them from collecting and using your data, unless you stop using gaming servers or make a formal request for its deletion (if the server is in the EU).

A better real world example than your chair is, if you paint a neighbor's wall with your paint, now the wall remains his, and the paint you put on his wall is now his. You gain neither the paint, nor the (painted) wall for your efforts. And you didn't have to sign anything for this to happen. Furthermore, if you both didn't agree on a price before the painting, then you painted for free, too. All of this applies, even if you painted a gorgeous mural, full of character and art and love and emotion; it changes nothing in the equation.
So I write a book in google docs, do google own the book, or do the only own the statistics over what times i wrote? Or what happens if i write a book in libre office and upload it to my dropbox account? Do they own the right? Is it clear that it is that way?

I say I own the data I produce unless something else is agreed.

If you still think some other way - please give me a reference to a legal document or something that that explains why the one who stores the data owns it. We are going in circles.

So I disagree with the two statements above:

Platyna = the "the manaworld project"
The host of the data = the rightful owner of the data

And i think that you believe at least one of those statements are true, otherwise i don't get your point. If this is the case i think we should agree to disagree. Or if you can show me any proof that any of those points are factually right I will have to change my mind. It is as simple as that.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 01 Feb 2016, 03:33

veryape wrote:
So I disagree with the two statements above:

Platyna = the "the manaworld project"
The host of the data = the rightful owner of the data
I had hoped my "painted wall" example would help, but instead you have somehow fixated on these two points, neither of which are true. This leads me to believe at least one of the following four possibilities:

1) You didn't carefully read any explanation that I wrote.
2) You didn't understand any explanation that I wrote.
3) You didn't want to believe any explanation that I wrote.
4) You are pretending but really having some fun trolling.

In any case, as I don't see the situation changing, I am giving up on explaining to you property rights when one party makes an alteration or improvement to another party's property without reasonable expectation of compensation. If the subject really interests you, and I doubt it does, you can go find better teachers than I.
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Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by veryape » 01 Feb 2016, 07:53

blackrazor wrote: I had hoped my "painted wall" example would help, but instead you have somehow fixated on these two points, neither of which are true. This leads me to believe at least one of the following four possibilities:

1) You didn't carefully read any explanation that I wrote.
2) You didn't understand any explanation that I wrote.
3) You didn't want to believe any explanation that I wrote.
4) You are pretending but really having some fun trolling.

In any case, as I don't see the situation changing, I am giving up on explaining to you property rights when one party makes an alteration or improvement to another party's property without reasonable expectation of compensation. If the subject really interests you, and I doubt it does, you can go find better teachers than I.
I tried my best. You have had your chance to bring facts to the table for nearly three years. You have failed to do so as far as I am aware. You have only made examples like painting walls and stuff and it seems like we are talking past eachother.

Anyhow, to remind you, you had the exact same argument three years ago, read this and continue where you left off to show why you still think that Platyna is the exclusive owner to the data rather than the Project owning the data.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17129&start=215

Don't miss out on what Bjorn thought and what Elven thought, She is not the founder of tmw, not the first host. I think it is clear that Platyna changed history along the way - trying to get people to think that she is the founder of the project and the sole owner of it. She was a host - she didn't even own the data according to her own rules as she stated them on her machines. Read that thread and come back with arguments that further your position or shows my position as wrong.
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