The Mana World Forums

Platyna wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 06:18You are silly. I always dealt with security and system issues promptly

I remember how it worked when someone stressed your apache, by something like infamous slow-reading DoS, so apache proven to be what it really is: slowpoke jerk & resource hog. Btw your HW server is a powerhouse compared to VMs and so on. Kinda shame it got down that easy. So new users were denied gamedata downloads. It persisted for days IIRC. Somehow, current TMW devs are at least able to set up nginx, it way harder to knock down this way. Even on VMs. There're also other measures. Sometimes they backfire, but overall I got to think their configuration is more sturdy, despite of lacking tremendous resources of dedicated HW server.

and what is the point of me hacking the server with 5 people online if I could hack and destroy it (as I knew all the bugs and weaknesses) it when there were 50?

Looking on how ppl managing vs some dumbass pest in another thread, despite odds, I would take this statement with a grain of salt. Yet it is known doing damage is easier than creating something and keeping it going. What would it prove? That you care about own weird ego more than about project? Hardly big achievement.

The difference between me and Stealing Committee is that I am not an abuser and I always was working for a common good.

Seems "Committee" had different idea on the topic. I wouldn't count on project future without dev/admin/GM team. If you think you can do it better - where is the proof? You also had database, and even registered domain name but ... it failed for rather funny reasons, like failing negotiations to include to online list. So much of management. Sorry, your manipulations are primitive, only dumb people would buy it. Also, slavery got prohibited ages ago - so attempts to view ppl around as your "assets" or "property" wouldn't work.

And most hilarious thing... look, now ppl trust MICROSOFT to run their server as VM more than they trust you, Linux admin with dedicated server. Maybe because even MS if far less about treating everyone as their "asset".

Either way, past it past. I'm curious: what you're trying to achieve by blaming TMWC all the time?

t3st3r wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 20:52

Platyna wrote: ↑01 Jan 2019, 06:18You are silly. I always dealt with security and system issues promptly

I remember how it worked when someone stressed your apache, by something like infamous slow-reading DoS, so apache proven to be what it really is: slowpoke jerk & resource hog. Btw your HW server is a powerhouse compared to VMs and so on. Kinda shame it got down that easy. So new users were denied gamedata downloads. It persisted for days IIRC. Somehow, current TMW devs are at least able to set up nginx, it way harder to knock down this way. Even on VMs. There're also other measures. Sometimes they backfire, but overall I got to think their configuration is more sturdy, despite of lacking tremendous resources of dedicated HW server.

and what is the point of me hacking the server with 5 people online if I could hack and destroy it (as I knew all the bugs and weaknesses) it when there were 50?

Looking on how ppl managing vs some dumbass pest in another thread, despite odds, I would take this statement with a grain of salt. Yet it is known doing damage is easier than creating something and keeping it going. What would it prove? That you care about own weird ego more than about project? Hardly big achievement.

The difference between me and Stealing Committee is that I am not an abuser and I always was working for a common good.

Seems "Committee" had different idea on the topic. I wouldn't count on project future without dev/admin/GM team. If you think you can do it better - where is the proof? You also had database, and even registered domain name but ... it failed for rather funny reasons, like failing negotiations to include to online list. So much of management. Sorry, your manipulations are primitive, only dumb people would buy it. Also, slavery got prohibited ages ago - so attempts to view ppl around as your "assets" or "property" wouldn't work.

And most hilarious thing... look, now ppl trust MICROSOFT to run their server as VM more than they trust you, Linux admin with dedicated server. Maybe because even MS if far less about treating everyone as their "asset".

Either way, past it past. I'm curious: what you're trying to achieve by blaming TMWC all the time?

Well Microsoft earned it, they also own the company we use to host the source code of the game and so many libraries used by the game itself.

Oh my, oh my, my httpd server couldn't stand 5 millions queries per hour. I am bad admin, going to cut myself. :D And TMWC can have as much ideas on my ideas as they wish so, if they are not stealing my data.

This data was given to me by users, I am responsible for them, when I say I do own this data it means I am solely responsible for it on behalf of the users. You fail to understand what OSS is. OSS not about stealing, it is about forking. If you don't Linux kernel management you do not steal Torvald's data and give it away. And I was a very good host. The service was stable and it did not disappear for two months like it happened with previous hosts. Without me TMWC would have nothing to steal as the game would be long dead. Data theft is data theft, no matter if the owner was good or bad.

the only person that thinks you did a good job was you!

On your server we had outages, roll backs, had to purge accounts, and deal with your threats.

Not to mention, your Ego, you seem to revel in the power!

Heck, you couldn't even keep your mail account working!

Glad to see you posting, it means we are still a thorn in your side!

Prsm

We are approaching 6 years of this useless bickering...

WildX wrote: ↑09 Feb 2019, 18:58 We are approaching 6 years of this useless bickering...

6th Anniversary: Candy or Iron.

So sad this goes in circles forever. OSS lets you freely copy the code, art, and scripting assets, usually placed on Github or something similar. You never have the right to copy the databases created by the server software on the game admin's computer. OSS does NOT cover that. It doesn't matter if your own character or email address or username/password is included in the data. Your only option then, is to have it removed. It doesn't matter if you come to despise the game admin, or believe them to be incompetent. Your only option then is to vote with your feet; go play another game, or code your own, including a fork of this project, since it's OSS on Github. Go make an exact assets copy, but with a fresh server database of your own creation (from the logins of all who play there). The player logins are not the owners of the database. The contributors to the project are not the owners of any particular database. Each game admin is the owner of their particular database, as output by the server software, on a machine under their jurisdiction. Elven and Bjorn cannot change this retroactively. Successive generations of game admins cannot claim ignorance of the facts, either. The facts will follow you, for as long as you continue to contravene them.

So yeah, it is stolen data that is still being used here. Specifically, frost and o11c stole it from Platyna on behalf of the TMWC and gave it to you guys, and you continue to use it, to this day. Why you didn't just start your own fork with a fresh database is beyond me. Were you all so attached to the characters and character possessions contained within the database, the digital representation of the virtual world owned by Platyna, that you couldn't bear to part with it? Wild keeps asking why it keeps getting brought up. Is there a statute of limitations for data theft, especially when the theft continues and the people in charge troll the victim about it? I'm not particularly sympathetic to Platyna as a human being, but theft is theft. Nowhere is theft considered less of a theft, because you don't like the person, their values, or their competence. I was hoping that your new project, with new combined assets and a fresh database would be online by now. But as long as the old, stolen database continues to be in use, this will keep coming up. You want it to end? Then understand what is causing the issue, and do differently. That's my advice.

the typed word, can be taken may ways! the nuisances of the voice are lost here.

You can call it stolen data, you can say they were power hungry! i get that. You have
a right to that opinion....... But did you know........

it was those individuals that created a back up to the data, that circumvented rolls back
caused by an admin at that time being constantly afk!

Did you know if those individuals had not come up with a backup to that admins deficiencies ,
that most of those players that played at that time, would have lost countless of playing hours
of grinding, because that admin had screwed up?

Did you know that those people that helped all the players not waste their energies, get threaten
by that admin for the extra effort they went through ?

Did you know that admin never thanked those individuals for saving the game?

did you know that admin knew they were backing up the data for her deficiency?

She knew the whole time! Just like she knew her email wasnt broken!
she left! and she only came back when her ego could not be fed!

Who else would say they were power hungry kids? Its a 2d game!
Serious Platyna, its like argueing about the power of a 2d game, in the 2100
century!

if you want incompetence in the game, i agree, Platyna is your person .....

But do you really know the facts?

Hi Prsm! I do know those facts, or at least a version of them. None of it justified theft. You know that. I know it, too. You all could have just made a fork. Lost hours of grinding do not justify theft. Better to just start over with a clean slate and a clear conscience.

Hiya Blackrazor,

We both think we are right, and maybe we are, all I know for sure is
Whats done is done!

Shall we move on?

Prsm

Put on your GM hat for a moment. Would you accept that from a player who transgresses the game rules? "Hey Prsm, what's done is done, let's move on, eh?"

Theft is one of humanity's oldest transgressions, so much so, that it made it into the Ten Commandments, which is a brief code of proper behavior thousands of years old. Today, the rules, laws, and social norms against theft are similarly strong and valid. If you see something, say something.

Morally, and very probably legally (barring loopholes), this is a case of data theft. The fact that no one has incurred the time and expense to bring a case forward over a dying 2D game, does not make it any less so. I don't know what exactly you think you are right about, but I would like to know, instead of just "you think you are right".

I have laid out my position very clearly and repeatedly, so it cannot be missed or misinterpreted or lost in the clutter of 54 pages of text. So in your words, why exactly is this not theft? Please stick to actual relevant facts.

That Platyna may be unlikable, absent, or incompetent, does not change the meaning of theft of her property. That Bjorn and Elven, creators of the game, retroactively encouraged you guys and gave the DNS to you (which is legal, Elven owned that specific piece of digital property) does not change the rules of OSS that were already in place, and so does not change the definition of theft here. That successive generations of Game Admins have passed along the stolen databases like a hot potato, with full knowledge of the situation, does not change the definition of theft. That the database existed before Platyna changes nothing, as well. She didn't steal it, it was given to her. When it was given to her, it became her property, running as output on her copy of the server software, on a machine under her sole jurisdiction. Taking it from her, at that point, is theft. There was no formal legally defined project that owned the databases during Platyna's tenure, if that ever came about later, it cannot be applied retroactively.

Did I miss anything? I would like to know. I am using logic here. Not emotion. Not obfuscation. Not rhetoric or bombast. Note that I have attacked no one personally and I have made no claims towards anyone's intentions or potential personality defects, because I truly believe such things take away from the sincerity and clarity of the logical argument.


Edit: I know a ton of contributors and GMs have put in tireless long hours in developing, maintaining, and policing the OSS assets. Some of them had direct assess to the databases, in order to provide backup, integrity, and versioning tasks. Tons of players have breathed life into the virtual worlds created as database output. I acknowledge and appreciate all of that. But under the rules of OSS, none of that grants ownership to a database output, created by the server software, running under a machine under the sole jurisdiction of any specific Game Admin. The databases of players, username/passwords, email addresses, characters, and characters' possessions belongs to the Game Admin, and is outside of the scope of OSS, as it was defined during the tenure of Platyna as Game Admin and sole authority. This is ironclad fact and cannot be changed retroactively.

you missed the premise of my last post, I dont believe tmwc was wrong. I also know you
think you are right!

we can argue this forever, was the data stolen (which i dont believe it was) or not, i
had no part in it nor did you and its not going back!

I am not going to rehash it all, I know what you are going to say, and you know what I will
say. Its just getting Old!

Actually Prsm, I have no idea what you will specifically say, other than "I don't believe it was stolen". Why, specifically, do you believe this? What specific relevant legal facts support your claim?

Also, if you work for an organization that stole something, and you work within that stolen virtual world (which is what the databases are), then you are tainted and compromised by those actions, as well. There is no getting away from it, as long as you remain associated with it. I have quit real world employment in the past, in order to protect myself from this very same (or similar) thing. I'm not telling you what to do, just pointing out what I perceive to be holes in your logic.

Regardless, I await your meaningful reply to the first paragraph in this post. It is brief and specific. And I put it in bold text, to make that abundantly clear.