The official server flamewar topic

Talk about anything, including games and servers not affiliated with The Mana World.
Locked
blackrazor
Novice
Novice
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 20 Feb 2019, 12:54

@WildX I got a forum warning from you, back in Sept 14 2018, for either posting in this thread, or making a post in off-topic about this thread, because you had locked it. When I asked, it was because you had gotten tired of 5 years of this and were ashamed for when people dropping by would see it. That is totally different from sanctioning people who disrupt either the game or other sections / threads, as you now claim. I kept it here, and still got the warning and you defended it, too.

How long will this go on? Probably as long as the stolen data (Player Databases and Forums) continues to be used without Platyna's permission, since it is her copyrighted property. You know very well that frost and o11c stole it from her, and yet you still continue to use it. Prsm, a GM of the TMWC, trolls Platyna when she comes on here to ask you to stop. That is on you, prsm, and all of TMWC for this continuation of the bad behavior.

One day, hopefully, in the future, you will finally get around to making the Evol / TMW fusion, with a new Player Database and hopefully new forums, and then all of this will be historical wrongs, instead of current affairs.

Moral of the story: Don't use what isn't yours to use. It brings bad karma.
User avatar
prsm
Game Master
Game Master
Posts: 1444
Joined: 24 Mar 2009, 18:18

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by prsm » 20 Feb 2019, 15:24

blackrazor wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 03:20
Let us judge each man by his actions. I'm not here for you, the TMWC, or Platyna. I'm here for the truth.
If you wanted the truth you would not shorten a post about racism to mean something to serve your truth.

Yes I do troll Platyna, I am sick of her and you whining. Like Wildx said, all the people that you have
a beef about our gone. Been gone for a long time. Wildx and I could not wipe the data and start over if
we wanted to, we are not and never have been admins, simply put "we don't have the priv class".

Wildx and I do the job we were asked to do, and part of that job is not listen to you and Platyna whine
like school kids.

I am guessing there are not enough crayons for you two, BUT THAT IS THE TRUTH!

Prsm


part 2:

You and Platyna have put forward and argument that we don't accept.
Just because you drive your dads car for years, and maintain your dads car for years,
and wash your dads car for years and maybe even pay insurance on it for years ......
Its still your Dads car! you never had the ownership papers! She never owned the domain
or the game or the data. You can argue she did, but you are wrong. Case closed.
ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
blackrazor
Novice
Novice
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 20 Feb 2019, 18:19

@Prsm You love hyperbole, conflation, and false equivalences.

I see nothing wrong with you being judged by your actions. Especially when you troll victims, such as Platyna.

As a TMWC GM, you enforce the law in a stolen virtual world that is not yours to abide. If you cannot see the irony in that, then that is on you.

The game assets (code, art, script) are OSS. The forum software is also OSS. They can be freely copied.
The DNS name was originally the property of Elven. He may have since given it to the TMWC. If he did, then that was a choice he made.
The Player Databases and Forum Data taken from Platinum are the copyrighted property of Platyna, because she was the Game Admin with sole jurisdiction of the machine where that particular iteration of the software was installed and made the output. That she was also the host is true, but irrelevant. Platyna clearly did not give this data to the TMWC. That was a choice she made, and needs to be respected.

Stolen data is stolen data. That was true in 2013, at the time of the data heist, and it is still true in 2019, when it continues to be used. Your Dad may have given you permission to use his car. Platyna never gave you permission to take and subsequently use her data. In fact, she protested and continues to this day to enforce her property rights to her copyrighted data.

When you write a unique book, as an author, or paint a unique painting, as a painter, those works belong to you, without you needing ownership papers. The same laws govern the output of software, even OSS software, that runs on a machine under your sole jurisdiction, and this is made clear within the details of the GNU GPL contract under which you made your copyleft and are governed. The unique virtual world and forum data, generated on Platinum, belongs to Platyna, and cannot be used (in the past, present, and future) without her permission. This is not my truth. This is the truth, as established by well settled law and morality in western civilization.
User avatar
prsm
Game Master
Game Master
Posts: 1444
Joined: 24 Mar 2009, 18:18

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by prsm » 20 Feb 2019, 18:46

you sir, are a broken record! Self absorbed in your own glory.
Telling half truths and twisting words.
I should have listen to my own self and walked away from this discussion

cya

Prsm
ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity!
weeeer
Newly Registered User
Posts: 0
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 00:02

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by weeeer » 21 Feb 2019, 03:21

prsm wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 04:34
You can call it stolen data, you can say they were power hungry! i get that. You have
a right to that opinion....... But did you know........

it was those individuals that created a back up to the data, that circumvented rolls back
caused by an admin at that time being constantly afk!

Did you know if those individuals had not come up with a backup to that admins deficiencies ,
that most of those players that played at that time, would have lost countless of playing hours
of grinding, because that admin had screwed up?

Did you know that those people that helped all the players not waste their energies, get threaten
by that admin for the extra effort they went through ?

Did you know that admin never thanked those individuals for saving the game?

did you know that admin knew they were backing up the data for her deficiency?
Image

Thanks for feed the trolls, Best wishes 2019.
User avatar
nech
Newly Registered User
Posts: 0
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 06:34

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by nech » 21 Feb 2019, 07:07

TMW always had elven at the top as project founder and leader, as much as some might wish otherwise

everyone blessed the move

I might understand where you were coming from if the server started as a fork and was called something like "Platyna's macrobiology corner"

but the user data did not start with Platyna

the offical project domain, branding, team endorsement, direct support, and more, did not start with Platyna

even hosting did not start with Platyna, although she gets credit for hosting the longest

for a while TMW was hers to host and moderate as she saw fit, and by all accounts did a pretty damn good job with everyone happy until whatever the fuck exploded between her and o11c

Then the project moved on.

even if this fucking thread doesn't
arguing-in-circles.jpg
arguing-in-circles.jpg (30.57 KiB) Viewed 232 times
blackrazor
Novice
Novice
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 21 Feb 2019, 07:57

@Prsm There is no glory for me in this. Only truth. It is a thankless task, alone and unallied. But that only makes the truth shine brighter, because I have nothing to gain, either way. My motives remain pure, untainted, and without agenda. I am interested only in the truth.

@Nech Branding is irrelevant in OSS. Founders are irrelevant in OSS. Elven owned the DNS name and URL www.themanaworld.org ... not Platyna. All of that is irrelevant as to ownership of player databases and forum data. Did the data exist before Platyna was Game Admin? Yes. But it was given to her by Elven and Bjorn (they later regretted it, but too bad), and so it become hers. If Platyna had, in turn, given the data to the TMWC, then none of this would be up for discussion. But she did not. Members of the TMWC, specifically o11c and frost, abused their access privileges and stole the copyrighted player databases and forum data (the data output of OSS is not open source, it is copyrighted) from the Platinum machine under the sole jurisdiction of Game Admin Platyna. And the TMWC continues to use this stolen data for their project, to this day, without giving Platyna her rights and in fact trolling and re-victimizing her, every time she shows up, trying to claim her property.

Hosting is irrelevant, too. All that matters, for data ownership, is who was the Game Admin, under whose sole jurisdiction the OSS ran, making output. Even if TMW is an official project today (making the Game Admin "TMW Project"), that was not the case back in 2013 when Platyna ran her version of the TMW OSS on Platinum, the machine under her sole jurisdiction as Game Admin. "TMW Project" cannot be applied retroactively to a time where it did not legally exist, to claim ownership of something that is, in fact, owned by someone else. And thank goodness for that, because imagine what all sorts of companies would do to all of us, with that sort of power, if they could get away with it.

Projects can move on. They can fork. But they cannot take what isn't theirs.
User avatar
nech
Newly Registered User
Posts: 0
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 06:34

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by nech » 21 Feb 2019, 09:18

blackrazor wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 07:57
Did the data exist before Platyna was Game Admin? Yes. But it was given to her by Elven and Bjorn (they later regretted it, but too bad), and so it become hers.
nope.jpg
nope.jpg (40.31 KiB) Viewed 225 times
even in 2009 (when Platyna has already been hosting for years), Elven and bjorn were still in charge of the project

if you think you have evidence otherwise, cite it
blackrazor wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 07:57
Even if TMW is an official project today (making the Game Admin "TMW Project"), that was not the case back in 2013 when Platyna ran her version of the TMW OSS on Platinum
TMW the 503 c) non-profit has only been around after the move

TMW the project has been around since 2004
blackrazor
Novice
Novice
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 21 Feb 2019, 10:59

@Nech Being in charge of an OSS Project doesn't mean you own the data running on any Game Admin's machine. The Game Admin owns the data output by OSS software on a machine under their sole jurisdiction. Who had jurisdiction of Platinum? Was it Elven or Bjorn? No. It was Platyna, as Game Admin of that iteration of TMW. Maybe they should not have made the software OSS GNU GPL, or made a different administrative structure when they started, but that was not the case.

People forget, but Bjorn and Elven did not want the eAthena-based project long-term, so they were happy to dump that on Platyna. They wanted to develop their own server software, a plan called Manaserve, which eventually culminated in the Final RPG Project. http://www.elvenprogrammer.org/projects ... final-rpg/

The TMWC currently has the URL www.themanaworld.org which if memory serves, Elven gave to them. They have access to all the assets which are OSS. Basically the entire server and client. All the code, art, scripts, quests. Everything you would see when logging into a new pristine world, they have. It's not so bad, really. What they do not own, are the player databases and forum data; those belong to Platyna. But even with that, there can be options:

1) Treat Platyna with respect. Ask nicely. She is no longer running her virtual world iteration of TMW. She hasn't, for years. For the good of the project, maybe she can be asked, nicely, to donate her property, the player databases and forum data, to TMW Project. Just like Elven donated the DNS URL. I'm not saying it would work, but it would be worth a try. It would settle this matter finally and bring a lot of good karma.

2) Just do a player and forum wipe. Keep the game, but start fresh. Problem solved. Except some people tend to grow so attached to their stuff and to the time they put in gathering all that stuff. I started playing back in 2007, when Platyna was quite obviously in charge. I witnessed it, firsthand. I collected so many rares back then from Platyna's generous Christmas giveaways, and made a lot of levels. Then I took a break of about 18 months, and came back to find my character wiped from inactivity. Back then, with a very inefficient ASCII database, it was considered necessary to prune inactive players. Did I cry about it? No. I started fresh and rebuild my character. No biggie. That is all that would be required for this option to succeed, from everyone that still wants to play.

3) Maintain the status quo. Better the devil you know, eh? It's shady, immoral, unethical, and possibly illegal. But hey, it's easy. And really, no one is going to spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars on a legal battle in uncertain jurisdictions (EU or USA, just for starters) over a nearly worthless 2D game that is itself coded in a shady bootlegged stripped-down Ragnarok Online emulator (which is what eAthena really is, let's be honest). This option is full of bad karma, and like all things with bad karma, you will feel it from time to time. But like the path which water takes, it is the one of least resistance.

===

Personally, I like option (1) best. If impossible, then option (2). And a distant cosmological last, for me, would be option (3). But everyone else has different priorities and feelings on this, and I can respect and appreciate that. What galls me is how Platyna is treated, and yes I know she can be excruciatingly difficult, but still, if that is the option you take, then at least try to be humble about it. I dislike the hypocrisy , conflation, hyperbole, and straw-man arguments of those trying to have option (3) and also to pretend that it is all fair, legit, legal, and totally their right to have their cake and eat it too. But its also a very interesting journey deep into human nature, to watch.
User avatar
nech
Newly Registered User
Posts: 0
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 06:34

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by nech » 21 Feb 2019, 11:28

nice mobile goalposts

for the record are you conceding that contrary to your prior post, the TMW project did exist since 2004

and that "the project includes development of both a client and a server, as well as the development of an online world"

with special emphasis on that last part
blackrazor wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 03:20
Let us judge each man by his actions. I'm not here for you, the TMWC, or Platyna. I'm here for the truth.
truth-asdf.gif
truth-asdf.gif (1.95 MiB) Viewed 211 times
User avatar
nech
Newly Registered User
Posts: 0
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 06:34

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by nech » 21 Feb 2019, 11:35

for what it's worth manaserv came much later, and final rpg is quite unrelated

First it wasn't even going to be a multiplayer game, just the client

Second eathena got used to network things together as a stop gap thing

Then eathena wasn't enough, so people planned tmwserv

Then the same thing, but with manaserv

Then the same thing, but with hercules


fortunately the TMW project is, was, and always continues to be quite willing to preserve the athena line for as long as people are willing to play it

(gosh, it's like there was an official project that could make meaningful decisions about what to do with the eathena server even back in 2010 or something)
blackrazor
Novice
Novice
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 21 Feb 2019, 12:56

@nech Hercules is like eAthena, just the next generation in Ragnarok Online emulators. Elven was interested in making server software, not adapting RO emulators. Do you deny it? Who are you, obviously not a "newly registered user". Why did you need to make a dummy account just to post in this thread? You should use the real you. I do.

Manaserv, tmwserv, call it what you wish, it was always Elven's plan to move away from RO Emus, and make his own software. Elven is formally trained and quite competent. No one in his position wanted to be an RO Emu tinkerer as anything more than a proof-of-concept stopgap measure. His new software would use new player databases, so the ones on eAthena were not a concern for him at the time.

Point is Elven didn't care, at the time, about eAthena and probably thought it would die on its own when the better manaserv would come out. (Haha) That's why, at the time, he didn't care if Platyna took over as Game Admin of whatever iteration of the OSS TMW that was running on her own Platinum machine. Maybe with hindsight, he came to see things differently, but I am talking back in 2007, when I first started playing. The more the project grew under Platyna's Game Admin-ship, the more "valuable" it became, as evidenced by many quotes in 2009 and 2010 that tried to rewrite historical perspective. Conversely, now it is pretty much abandoned and mostly dead (not completely dead), so short of rifling through its pockets for loose change, there isn't much to do, except hope.

None of this changes the basic fact that the existence of a GNU GPL OSS game project does not confer upon it ownership of data files output upon a machine under the sole jurisdiction of a Game Admin. Wouldn't it be nice to own anything that was convenient for you? But you can't. Such is life. Life is full of other people who already own things that you may desire. Too bad. Also the game project was ad hoc back then, not legal. That is why the DNS was registered to Elven and not The Project back then. Because there was no legal project to own anything. When that eventually changed, well after the 2013 data heist, then Elven transferred the DNS registration to the project, because finally there was a project to transfer it over. But that does not apply retroactively and it does not apply involuntarily. Elven voluntarily transferred ownership of the DNS registration to the project. but Platyna did not voluntarily transfer ownership of her data (player databases and forum data).
User avatar
nech
Newly Registered User
Posts: 0
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 06:34

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by nech » 21 Feb 2019, 14:07

so you're not willing to concede a point when clear counter evidence is presented

good to see that in writing

lets take a look at these moved goalposts anyway since I'm feeling so nice
blackrazor wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 12:56
Elven was interested in making server software
wrong

before your time, but TMW started as nothing involving any game server software at all

just a secret of mana clone, standalone

we were only ever secret of mana fans at the start

interest in server software came later, as a way of testing things together. now bjorn, he was pretty keen on tmwserv, but Elven? even when he was looking at becoming more proactive again he was primarily looking at client development, and more than happy to dedicate the community (which he expressly defines here as forum moderation and in game moderation) to Platyna

(in the very next post she was quite happy to accept, almost as if Elven's word about what to do with eathena meant something)

remember how Platyna went from being a green name moderator on the forums to being a "regular" user, and how she shortly afterwards became in 2009 a full founder rights admin with the red name we all remember and love

you said you remember 2007, perhaps you remember Platyna having a green moderator's name (along with maci) back then too? or was the history rewriting conspiracy you allege next - the one to cover up that it was allegedly always Platyna's forums and game - in full force even back when you joined, too?

I'm truly impressed that there was a conspiracy to rewrite things from the way you remember it even as far back as when you joined
think-orbit.png
think-orbit.png (8.68 KiB) Viewed 199 times
blackrazor wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 12:56
Who are you, obviously not a "newly registered user".
what happened to all the appeals to pop logic and psychology? you might recognise "ad hominem", you might remember saying it yourself

at least be creative, make fun of my avatar or post reaction images or something
blackrazor wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 12:56
evidenced by many quotes in 2009 and 2010 that tried to rewrite historical perspective
is this, unlike TMW the project allegedly not existing before the move, something you'll stand by? that platyna, in the new height of her activity throughout 2010, after elven formally put her not just back with but also in charge of moderation, regularly making herself known through quizzes before studies and real life took over, disagreed with the characterizations and general consensus of the TMW project without saying a word against, even in threads that she herself posted in? even to the point where she described her own role in her own words as being hosting scope plus gm_account.txt? you wound her by describing her as so malleable, and vastly underestimate the extraordinary strength of her personality


while we disagree on the grand scheme of things, I'm glad that we can both agree that TMW as you remember it is not aligned with the evidence from 2009 and 2010, even if the precise degree to which that evidence should be downplayed is still contested


what would you like to talk about next
blackrazor
Novice
Novice
Posts: 332
Joined: 18 Oct 2007, 14:38

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by blackrazor » 21 Feb 2019, 22:15

nech wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 14:07
what would you like to talk about next
Nothing, since you are making stuff up under the cover of a stealth identity. The forum admins can see who you really are, by IP (assuming you're not VPNing under this account), but I cannot.

Nothing, not anything you have written, changes that "The Project" was not a legal official entity until well after the 2013 Data Heist, which is why Elven took until then to transfer the DNS registration to it; before that, the DNS registration was under his name (Eugenio Favalli), because the project could not own anything in its ethereal state. Under GNU GPL, Platyna, as Game Admin of her iteration of TMW OSS running on the Platinum machine under her sole jurisdiction, was the owner of the copyrighted data outputs (Player Databases & Forum Data). Frost and o11c, of the then newly formed TMWC, abused their GHP access privileges (meant for backups and updates only) to take the data (Player Databases & Forum Data) off of Platinum and bring it here, and it is still being used here, to this day, over the objections of Platyna. The structure before the 2013 Data Heist, was Platyna on top (as absolute Game Admin) and her GHP (everyone else working for her) underneath. Too bad that all got erased. The TMWC was the "revolutionary entity" that came into existence after the 2013 Data Heist, with frost and o11c effectively in charge of it, until they quit. TMWC did not exist before their heist. Nothing else matters to define the ownership of the data.
User avatar
nech
Newly Registered User
Posts: 0
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 06:34

Re: The official server flamewar topic

Post by nech » 22 Feb 2019, 00:02

blackrazor wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 22:15
nech wrote: what would you like to talk about next
Nothing
noooo, you can't give up now! you were doing so well and we were having so much fun
blackrazor wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 22:15
something
hallelujah
yay.jpg
yay.jpg (65.03 KiB) Viewed 149 times
blackrazor wrote:
21 Feb 2019, 22:15
Platyna ... was the owner of the copyrighted data outputs (Player Databases & Forum Data)
yup, definitely not a moderator that rage quit after bjorn made Katze GM and only became relevant beyond hosting scope once elven put her in charge of moderation

lets read from her royal black cattiness herself
her royal black cattiness wrote: (08:55:05) Platyna: Huh?
(08:55:08) Platyna: Sue me for damage?
(08:55:10) Platyna: Not possible.
(08:55:29) Platyna: Platinum rules clearly says that the host is not responsible for crap you keep on the server.
clearly more than a host here, I don't know how anyone could read "you" as anything other than her referring to herself in third second person
her royal black cattiness wrote: (08:22:43) Platyna: I want to be a server admin, but only for community stuff. But rather because thorbjorn doesn't seem to want to do the job, and Jaxad0127 is ok as for technical person but he has no idea about the community side of the job.
definitely the words of someone in total control and not "only for community stuff" who would even think such a thing after reading that smh


oh wait evidence, even from 2009/2010 long before the move, long before Frost and o11c even arrived, was all a conspiracy to rewrite history

I can't imagine how anyone could see you as anything other than a stalwart seeker of truth
i-cant-hear-you-lalala.jpg
i-cant-hear-you-lalala.jpg (38.37 KiB) Viewed 149 times
Last edited by nech on 22 Feb 2019, 03:44, edited 1 time in total.
Locked