Losing Faith

[Kineticstorm]

I haven't been that active lately because I have been examining the progress of TMW. From what it looks like, this project is going in a path further away from Secret of Mana (which is what Elven intended it to be like) and I am losing faith in it.

First of all, neoriceisgood and kyokai aren't helping. I don't know what the reason is for neorice and kyokai leaving/not helping but they would be very good assets to this project. Neorice's graphics are very similar to SoM which is perfect for this game but they are all low-res like SoM. I dont care if this game is high-res/low-res but if I had to choose I would choose low-res because it would very much give you the feeling of a classic console game. None of you know this but neorice is one of my spriting idols. That is one reason why I got involved with this project in the first place because I saw that neorice was helping but now since he isn't helping, it is a big turn off to me.

I don't know why kyokai left either. Didn't he have a battle system like SoM for the new server? I thought it would be awesome to use kyokai's systems but now he is not here so you can't.

Another big problem to me is the map graphics. First of all you have like 3 different spriters with their own styles doing maps. None of them match at all. Compare Crushes woodland map to irukard's desert map. They really do not look like the same game. I think you should have just had one main map graphics guy who makes all the other maps his style. Like if you had irukard be the main map gfx guy and crush makes a map with a different style then irukard would edit the map to make it his style/the main style of the game. To me all you needed for graphics was neorice since he was obviously the most skilled spriter here other than Jetryl and Talaroc. I am also good at making low-res sprites so I could have helped alot too.

Another huge problem that has been bugging me is why in the bluest of hell would you add a mouse option to an action RPG?! If this game was more like SoM you wouldn't need a mouse! All you need is to make the game keyboard and joystick only, it is not that hard. All those mouse freaks would just be forced to only use a keyboard/joystick. Mouse-clicking RPGs get boring really quick, that is why you never hear about them! This was also another turn off to me because mouse+SoM=NOT SOM.

Elven, if the way TMW is now is they way you wanted it then fine. It is your project and you do what you want, but I won't help anymore with it. If you want TMW more like SoM then you have to do some changes. Unless I see this project become more like SoM, I won't help with it.
Oh, and you can keep any sprites I made as long as you say I made them.

I know TMW is still pre-alpha or whatever but that is why I am saying this now before you get any further in the project. You can respond to this post but I probably will not see it because I am leaving the project for the time being. I hope you consider my thoughts.

Well, goodbye, for now.

[Modanung]

I think almost none of the systems are actually final because we still use eAthena.
I too would love a fighting system similar to SoM... but this is just very hard to implement in a multiplayer game. With the lag it would be a huge pain in the lower back to hit a monster. And if you'd want to hit a player that way it's even worse.

[Tenche]

Yeah I agree. I gess its just a faze and things will pick up once people start becoming active again. (The programmers)

[Rotonen]

I'm for allowing mouse interaction with the gui only, but since we're open source, how are we going to prevent people from using a mouse to play?

As for neorice and Kyokai: from my point of view they're more than welcome to help. I think our slow pace and relaxed attitude towards developing drove them away (at least for now). Neo has been lurking around more and more lately and afaik we're still using Kyokai's systems.

As for the stylistical issues: have patience, the transitions might change your mind.

[Crush]

contributors come and go. that's the open source way.

[ElvenProgrammer]

Kinetic: I sincerely understand how you feel, but I won't loose faith in it. I want to state that just to make it clear that I won't leave this project and it won't stop never, at least while I'm alive.
I said I understand how you feel because yes, we are going a bit far away from the SoM path. I agree, but I want to make clear that the original idea is still alive. Let's distinguish between the action and the graphic of SoM. About the former, well I'd say that an action RPG keyboard controlled is possible and will be pursued. You disagree with mouse? Do you know what I do? I just don't use it. About the graphic, well that's another matter. I sometimes regret the switch to high-res graphic, I thought that could give us a better result, but for the moment it only slowed down content development. Finding nice artists that can work together with the same style without being pro, or being paid it's very hard you know. Neoriceisgood is great you say? I agree, but he said he would contribute for a while and that's exactly what he did... We have many others talented artists (I included you as well till now), but they have different styles, and reaching a style similar to SoM one especially in high-res isn't an easy task, you know? But my hope is that with time and progress we will attract new artists and we will improve our style to reach perfection
About kyokai, well he was just bored because he didn't see his work actually used, so he is now concentrating on other projects until we have a real server where to test his systems, on which most of us agreed. He will probably come back when there's more need. I hope this answer help you understand my policy for this project, and you should understand that a SoM based game was always my dream, if you look also at my other projects...so I won't give it up that easy. I just need the help of everyone with their contributions, ideas and critics as well. It's sad to see you go Kinetic, but I hope you will come here sometimes to check the progress.

More questions? Feel free to paste them here.

[Jetryl]

My opinions: Graphical relation to SOM can be achieved in higher resolution by following a middling path in styles between SOM and RO. Your sprites are something like halfway between the resolution of both of those games.

A lot of this has to do with subtle tricks in how spriters do art, the informing of which is why I'm here.


Kyokai's "systems" were boring and poorly thought out. He never actually did anything directly useful, (heck, I at least have edited graphics that went in the game) and generally just fluffed himself up to have a fancy title but was all talk and no action.


Neoriceisgood's spritework is, as always, great. =)

[Rotonen]

Well from what I know, Kyokai is more than capable of finishing what he started when we're actually going to need it. Although I'd like to see the system to be polished before we actually need it for implementation..

[nym]

I agree with most of the points there. Except im not sure if it would be good for Kyokai to come back, as before he was a very self-centered control freak.

Modanung: As for the "SoM style battling not possible blah blah blah"; it is total BS. It is possible, and it is playable. Years ago i played a MMORPG with a similar real-time fighting system over the internet on 56k dialup with no problems. I dont know how many times i have pointed this out, but somehow people have come to believe that it's impossible as truth. It does consume slightly more bandwidth, but it doesn't consume so much as to make it undesirable.

[Tenche]

I agree with most of the points there. Except im not sure if it would be good for Kyokai to come back, as before he was a very self-centered control freak.

Yeah this is true but can we afford it?

[Bear]

let me say this... Iv wanted to for a while. But i believe Kyokais systems are WAY too complicated for someone who just wants to have fun(Players >.>)

The people we are targeting!? Players
People who will play this game? Players

People Kyokai expects to understand his extremely long and boring System? Players

Im sure alot of you think so as well, im not bombing Kyokai, just telling everyone what i think of his systems.

I say we take a easier/ simpler approach and try to achieve more with easier systems.

[BoomStYx]

Hey guys new here hehe, love the game by the way, the potential in it is very very good and I plan to be a big contributor in the near future. But off my introduction hehe, if you guys ever wanted to revert back to the old artwork for any reason, or want to get that resolution support in but want it scaled, you could still achieve a "higher resolution look" to them with a 2d scaler like 2xsai:

http://elektron.its.tudelft.nl/~dalikifa/

But of course you guys probably already know about this haha. But I try

[Crush]

Guess what algorithmn has been used to convert the 16x16 pixel tiles to 32x32 tiles some years ago

(or was it HQ2X?)

I already experimented a bit with integrating 2xSaI filtering in tmw and found some barriers that make it very difficult to use it in tmw:

-It is partially written in assembler. But we are making a multiplatform game. Because ASM code isn't portable from one processor architecture to another without rewriting large parts we can't use any ASM code in TMW.
-It is written for Allegro bitmaps. But we are using SDL surfaces or OpenGL surfaces, depending on the graphic mode. Both use a different format.

That means that when we want to use 2xSaI at runtime we would have to reimplement the whole algorithmn in C++ and for SDL and OpenGL.

[Platyna]

I think if we shouldn't clone any game at all, I don't even think if it is possible if many people are contributing, we should take many motives from many games, and map diversity, generally diversity is good. Maybe we should just move along, and think about creating a nice game without any restraints.

Regards.

[AxlTrozz]

Maybe we should just move along, and think about creating a nice game without any restraints.

Regards.

Agree !