Gms' commands question.

[Funsani]

Hello,

Last day i was curious and i checked the gms logs, i saw this:

[2011-07-29 21:11:43] 001-1.gat(53,54) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats fermule

I checked what is charstats for and i saw that it lists many things like, player level, jobs, hp, maxhp, mana
points all the stats and the player moneys, i would like to understand actually how a gm can use that command to
enforce the rules, since to me it has nothing to do with rules.
In my opinion i dont think that command should be available for gms since gms don't need to know that informations.

I play this game for long time. If gms are in the game to enforce the rules why the ip and chrastats are done?

Isn't this abuse? We all remember that some abuses happened before with delasia and other gms and again not long
ago with kill and revive char commands.

To give you the idea:

[2011-07-21 01:52:44] 026-1.gat(24,58) Big Crunch(2160466) : @t Hello Artie. This is a botcheck. You have 2
minutes to respond.
[2011-07-21 01:53:18] 026-1.gat(23,57) Big Crunch(2160466) : @ipcheck artie
[2011-07-21 01:54:44] 026-1.gat(23,57) Big Crunch(2160466) : @invisible
[2011-07-21 01:54:49] 026-1.gat(23,57) Big Crunch(2160466) : @l char responded

Ip matters? that player answered the check but the gm didn't wait to see the reply.

And again:

[2011-07-22 18:05:36] 009-1.gat(46,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @ipcheck who am i

Without any reason. I may understand that charstats may be used for chars reset:

[2011-07-15 01:20:04] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @charstats oudina
[2011-07-15 01:22:03] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @l lvldezero and oudina asked for a reset

Even if there are other ways like the magic spell inwilt, and i know almost all the gms have the magic skills as a
fact:

[2011-07-09 14:47:53] botcheck.gat(20,19) Narus(2121285) : @t since this is a level 1 character theres no point to
delete and make a new one so i will block you and if you really wwant to play the game make a good char name

and she didn't use charstats to know the player's level, and again:

[2011-07-28 14:12:54] 001-1.gat(54,52) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats TruePurple

[2011-07-29 21:11:34] 001-1.gat(52,55) Big Crunch(2160466) : @goto fermule
[2011-07-29 21:11:43] 001-1.gat(53,54) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats fermule
...
[2011-07-29 21:17:28] 001-1.gat(59,56) Big Crunch(2160466) : @ban 1d Fermule

What does charstats has to do to ban for insult? and more...

[2011-06-16 14:04:14] 005-1.gat(76,14) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats Qwerty Dragon
[2011-06-16 14:10:07] 001-1.gat(44,75) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats darokin_fr
[2011-06-27 14:47:46] 009-1.gat(45,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats DrZaeuss
[2011-05-07 17:39:26] 009-1.gat(46,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats SADOMASO
[2011-05-13 00:03:20] 008-1.gat(47,62) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats facup
[2011-05-25 22:53:01] 009-1.gat(46,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @ipcheck 12847
[2011-05-25 22:55:09] 009-1.gat(46,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats fkef

without any valid comment.

If narus and tiana are the oldests gms, why we never these command from them?

I dont want to accuse anyone, but the rules must be enforced to gms too.

Also

[2011-07-03 06:38:44] 009-1.gat(46,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @revive 414
[2011-07-03 06:39:01] 009-1.gat(46,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @l episode of pvp and 4144 was afk

4144 can walk as everybody and he was in town, are not gm only to enforce rules? i can quote many forum posts that
say that the are here to enforce them.

I am asking, why a gm must use these commands since they don't help at all to enforce the rules. Knowing a player's
level doesn't matter to ban him or her. I may understand that know the player ip may help to find alts but again if
someone break a rule the ipcheck can only help to know if the chars, since it's useful only in the case there are
more than one. All can be from the same player if he or she doesn't use a proxie which makes the ipcheck useless...

Cheers.

[Frost]

Hi dayve

[o11c]

We all remember that some abuses happened before with delasia and other gms and again not long
ago with kill and revive char commands.

I'm not quite so jaded as Frost (surely if it's the same person he/she would realize the weakness of these arguments? But I keep making the mistake of assuming intelligence, which would indicate this really was a new user), but seeing a reference to something that happened eons ago with only one post discards all semblance of reliability.

[Crush]

@charstats can be used to check if an @charwipe was successful.

@ipcheck is a valuable tool given to GMs to 1. catch those people who are abusive under different characters while behaving fine with their main character and 2. to catch excessive multiboxing. By the way, @ipcheck does NOT reveal the IP address of a player. It only shows names and locations of other characters which play under the same IP.

Clipboard01.png (61.96 KiB) Viewed 2694 times

[o11c]

Hm ... isn't it unhelpful that @ipcheck doesn't allow matching game account to forum account? Or is the information in account.txt enough for those who need-to-know?

[Tiana]

o11c, GMs are generally not forum moderators with the exception of the Court House - so there is little reason a tool designed for GM use would have any relation to a forum account.

Overall, Crush's description of what the command of @ipcheck was designed to do is perfect.

[Funsani]

Hello again,

i will reply in the same order as you guys replied.

Hi dayve

Sorry to disappoint you, i'm not dayve.

I keep making the mistake of assuming intelligence

Me too....

Hm ... isn't it unhelpful that @ipcheck doesn't allow matching game account to forum account? Or is

the information in account.txt enough for those who need-to-know?

i would like to understand, which rule do you think will be enforced in that way? is the forum an extension of the
game? i mean game rules are applyable to the forum too? i can't bot in forum...... and if i find a way to bot, will a gm ban me in forum or in game? then when i will ask for reset will my posts counter be reset to 0 or will my character be reset to level 1? forum is forum and game is game at least for me. As far as i know you don't ban people in game because they post in forum. What you said has no sense, for my knowledge GMs cannot ban in forum and i see no point for them to know who is who in forum that because they enforce rules in game.
Please don't post nonsense, use intelligence!

@ipcheck is a valuable tool given to GMs to 1. catch those people who are abusive under different

characters while behaving fine with their main character and 2. to catch excessive multiboxing. By the way,

@ipcheck does NOT reveal the IP address of a player. It only shows names and locations of other characters which

play under the same IP.

Alright, i understood how it helps to enforce rules, now i started to wonder about this:

@charstats can be used to check if an @charwipe was successful.

if it's used to check if some wipe/reset after ban was successfull what's the meaning of using it without doing a wipe/reset after ban ? sorry if i keep asking but i see no point to use that command in that cases as i saw in gms' logs, i still think it's abusive, can someone of you explain me better, maybe it's useful in other ways? thanks in advance!

o11c, GMs are generally not forum moderators with the exception of the Court House - so there is little reason a

tool designed for GM use would have any relation to a forum account.

Overall, Crush's description of what the command of @ipcheck was designed to do is perfect.

Thanks for the explanation about the GMs relation to the forum and the confirmation of the @ipcheck function, it gave a more precise idea about that topics, but can i ask you one thing do you think that charstats was abused?

To finish, my question is as i said i already undrestood about @ipcheck, so this time can someone explain the @charstats in these cases?

Cheers.

[o11c]

Hm ... isn't it unhelpful that @ipcheck doesn't allow matching game account to forum account? Or is

the information in account.txt enough for those who need-to-know?

i would like to understand, which rule do you think will be enforced in that way? is the forum an extension of the
game? i mean game rules are applyable to the forum too? i can't bot in forum...... and if i find a way to bot, will a gm ban me in forum or in game? then when i will ask for reset will my posts counter be reset to 0 or will my character be reset to level 1? forum is forum and game is game at least for me. As far as i know you don't ban people in game because they post in forum. What you said has no sense, for my knowledge GMs cannot ban in forum and i see no point for them to know who is who in forum that because they enforce rules in game.
Please don't post nonsense, use intelligence!

I was more thinking of maintaining a level of civility in the forum, due to a number of incidences where a vocal minority presents an attack on the GMs or Administrators. Sockpuppeting (on the forum) or multiboxing (in the game) are often involved (or suspected to be involved).

Also, there have been cases where different people have registered the same or similar names, on the forum and in the game, which to me is a per se violation of the "no scamming" rule.

Now that I actually consult it, the Forum Moderation Guidelines does not prohibit sockpuppeting in the "Loose moderation forums"; I believe this is an oversight and should be changed.

---
If you created a bot in game and got caught, there would be no penalty in the forum.

Initially I wrote here many words about how few real penalties there are for botting but they were too bitter so I deleted them. It's not like the people in charge don't know that there's a problem, or that I think they should do something about it.

[prsm]

I feel Crush did an excellent job of explaining everything, and Tiana's comments were right on line.

I am also guessing that no matter what we say, you will still think it was abuse, so i wont whip a dead horse!

[Funsani]

Hello,

I feel Crush did an excellent job of explaining everything, and Tiana's comments were right on line.

I am also guessing that no matter what we say, you will still think it was abuse, so i wont whip a dead horse!

That's right Crush gave an excellent explanation, he said that ipcheck is mostly used to see if the players are using other characters to start abusive behaviour and to check for excessive multibox. Also that since Charstats shows the actual character's status (which includes stats plus level, skills and money) it's useful to check if the operation was successful when you do a character reset after a ban or a wipe. I understood that very well but i had no reply about what i asked, which was why in that cases that commands have been used.

According to the description that Crush gave the commands were used in the wrong way, more pecisely in this case:

[2011-07-29 21:11:34] 001-1.gat(52,55) Big Crunch(2160466) : @goto fermule
[2011-07-29 21:11:43] 001-1.gat(53,54) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats fermule
[2011-07-29 21:16:30] 001-1.gat(53,54) Big Crunch(2160466) : @invisible
[2011-07-29 21:16:31] 001-1.gat(61,72) Big Crunch(2160466) : @hugo
[2011-07-29 21:17:04] 001-1.gat(59,56) Big Crunch(2160466) : @l Fermule is insulting a player
[2011-07-29 21:17:10] 001-1.gat(59,56) Big Crunch(2160466) : @visible
[2011-07-29 21:17:28] 001-1.gat(59,56) Big Crunch(2160466) : @ban 1d Fermule

Charstats have been used but according to common sense ipcheck had to be used since charstats is useless to manage the abuse (no wipes or ban was done). Ipcheck would reveal, since "fermule" as the name say is an alternative character, the original character, instead charstats have been used, it has no meaning since it says the character level, skills and money, does it matter when someone insult? and if matters in which way help to manage the abuse?

Once again i take as example your work, here you used charstats to check the players to see if the reset went right:

[2011-07-15 01:10:14] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @unban lvldzero
[2011-07-15 01:10:51] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @unblock lvldzero
[2011-07-15 01:11:23] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @visible
[2011-07-15 01:11:54] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @unban lvledzero
[2011-07-15 01:15:51] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @unblock lvledzero
[2011-07-15 01:17:05] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @recall lvledzero
[2011-07-15 01:17:42] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @charbaselvl -99 lvledzero
[2011-07-15 01:18:02] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @charstats lvledzero
[2011-07-15 01:18:57] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @unblock oudina
[2011-07-15 01:19:20] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @recall oudina
[2011-07-15 01:19:55] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @charbaselvl -99 oudina
[2011-07-15 01:20:04] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @charstats oudina
[2011-07-15 01:22:03] botcheck.gat(24,19) Prsm(2102937) : @l lvldezero and oudina asked for a reset
[2011-07-15 01:22:11] 009-1.gat(46,29) Prsm(2102937) : @return
[2011-07-15 01:24:57] 009-1.gat(55,36) Prsm(2102937) : @recall lvledzero
[2011-07-15 01:25:46] 009-1.gat(55,36) Prsm(2102937) : @recall oudina

In these cases no reset was done, as you can see there are only @hugos and other commands but nothing to reset.

[2011-06-16 14:03:49] 017-2.gat(31,28) Big Crunch(2160466) : @hugo
[2011-06-16 14:03:50] 005-1.gat(80,14) Big Crunch(2160466) : @hugo
[2011-06-16 14:04:14] 005-1.gat(76,14) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats Qwerty Dragon
[2011-06-16 14:04:23] 018-3.gat(149,93) Big Crunch(2160466) : @hugo
[2011-06-16 14:04:27] 018-3.gat(100,119) Big Crunch(2160466) : @hugo

[2011-06-16 14:05:32] 001-1.gat(29,28) Big Crunch(2160466) : @hugo
[2011-06-16 14:05:47] 001-1.gat(44,75) Big Crunch(2160466) : @visible
[2011-06-16 14:10:07] 001-1.gat(44,75) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats darokin_fr
[2011-06-16 14:23:04] 001-1.gat(43,44) Big Crunch(2160466) : @invisible
[2011-06-16 14:25:40] 009-1.gat(46,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @return

[2011-06-27 14:44:13] 003-1.gat(77,41) Big Crunch(2160466) : @hugo
[2011-06-27 14:44:15] 009-1.gat(45,36) Big Crunch(2160466) : @hugo
[2011-06-27 14:44:20] 009-1.gat(58,41) Big Crunch(2160466) : @goto guild
[2011-06-27 14:47:46] 009-1.gat(45,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats DrZaeuss
[2011-06-27 14:51:45] 009-1.gat(45,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @broadcast Xarxax needs help freeing Cindy! He will

attempt the rescue in 10 minutes!
[2011-06-27 15:08:25] 009-1.gat(45,37) Big Crunch(2160466) : @broadcast Xarxax would like to apologize to everyone.
He is unable to do the quest.

and so on for all the other times, that's what i am asking, why that command has been used since it's to check if wipes/reset has been succesfull.

Maybe i didn't write in a understandable way. I am sorry, i am writing it in another way.

Can i have the answer about this please? I want to know Why charstats is used in that cases since it shows the player's money and level and skills and others informations about the character and there was no wipe or reset.
Thanks!

If you still didn't understand why i am saying it's abusive i will tell you that it's because a gm can know my money and which skills i achieved among my level that has very little meaning to me since it can be
obtained as i said with the spell inwilt by any player with the right magic skills.
I don't like at all that someone can check the money in characters since the selling and buying prices can be set according to that knowledge (maybe skills and level are not that important but money are), must i put all the times my money in bank to avoid that? That's the abuse that i see.

Cheers.

[prsm]

Once again, i believe me explaining anything is futile, since i don't believe your mind is open to this topic, but i will try and make one last effort anyway. I will qualify it first.

If you are someone sock puppeting this forum, you have already lost in my eyes, its a spineless way to play and attack people!

If you are someone not sock puppeting this forum, you are asking why Big Crunch did what he did? I cant answer that, nor do I think he should answer it, we "Police" the game to the best of our abilities! Yes , we have commands available to us to do that job! we have only a few tools to do our job and we work hard to move this game forward, Anything we do including the commands charstats and ipstats are for the benefit of the game, if you dont see that, i am sorry. You made the post because you thought he was breaking rules, thats fair, The powers that be can read it, and if need be act on it. Any subsequent posts by you could also be deemed an attack, and i guess one could also argue abuse (but once again, i dont see that either) .

I dont see how knowing how much money someone carries on a player is abuse (since like you mentioned, we have the bank and alts available to us), nor do i see how knowing someones skill is abuse!

Big Crunch's reputation is unwavering in my eyes, and yes, that's an opinion!

I will probable refrain from re-posting on this forum, its merit less in my eyes but i have tried!

[mistergrey]

Ok, assuming you aren't one of the same few people who have been constantly targeting GMs for silly reasons (which, by the fact that almost every example you show of a GM using commands is of Big Crunch, seems quite unlikely...), why should you feel abused by a rule enforcer having commands that let them see a few facts about another player? For one thing, whether you consider the use of the command necessary or not, you haven't showed anyway in particular that you're being abused with said command, except that you don't like GMs knowing how much money you have. I don't see that that's really a problem, since when it comes to buying and selling most people set their prices higher than most can afford anyways. I highly doubt a gm is going to @charstat you, and then try and sell you something, or go inform the town how much money you have. You said that it's not necessary since they have the inwilt spell, but even if the GMs all have the magic skill, these commands were there before the magic to help enforce the rules, and I don't see that they're obligated to use the same means every player can use.

Sometimes, I hate that any player can view the GM logs. I thought they were there to keep things fair, but all I've seen them used for is for picky players (or just one or two players with a lot of sockpuppets) to abuse GMs, or whine about the commands a GM can use. I say this as a normal player with no dev or GM status, no use of commands, etc. I just find it sad that something like this even comes up as often as it does. Most games don't have a way for players to see what moderators do all day, yet this game gives us a way and we only use it to nitpick about stuff like this. Anyways, if you're not one of the ones who have been attacking certain GMs on the forum, then you made a forum account and your only posts in here, because you don't want GMs seeing how much money you have? Seems unlikely, but if it's true then I wonder what makes you so nervous about that. Are you playing as a noob begging for handouts, hoping a GM won't notice the 10kk you have on you? LOL.

[Chicka-Maria]

Okay this is what i see from both sides....

GMs View:
The gm's are being targetted for every single thing they do and its getting quite annoying to see on the forums. Like checking the GM log for every single thing they do? checking things to spy if they did anything wrong? seriously? s.p'ing the forums? GROW UP. we dont need moderators for moderators we have those already. i mean if the gms were doing something so terrible that affects your gameplay id understand but @charstats really? -_- kamon dude go outside and get some fresh air...

from players view:
okay i understand that the gms use @charstats why dont the devs try and talk about what can be used and what cant? also try and fix some of the commands. @charstats ok they can see the stats but does viewing money really need to be? its not like they delete money when they char reset. cant you change the @charstats so you can see stats only ? (if you can even view money in @charstats). Why not try to compromise?


Anyway this crap is starting to get annoying. why dont you try to grow a pair and stop hiding behind alt forum accounts if your the same person.

Cheers!

[DarkWater]

Hello,

Last day i was curious and i checked the gms logs, i saw this:

[2011-07-29 21:11:43] 001-1.gat(53,54) Big Crunch(2160466) : @charstats fermule

To be honest, charstats is a semi bot check. If you check character 1 today, and get level 1. Come back in 24 hours and get level 30. Come back in 24 hours and get level 50. If they have good stats then it might be possible, but if they have horrible stats, good money says they might be botting and need to be watched. Using this ability has zero abuse, because you can use magic to achieve the same result. To use charstat is to semi bot check and to check characters behavior.

The gm's need to use tools to catch the people that are botting, this is simply one of those tools.

As for frost, I would ask the admins to please give him a warning about his posting behavior, accusing people with out proof is not only something that a developer should not be posting, but is out and out trolling. If he has a personal problem with an other character, then keep it off the forums, but the behavior of the developers need to be held a higher standard.

[meway]

Gm's should not be questioned on simple things. The tools where given to them for a reason. Platyna and yourself being part of the community gave BigCrunch (him being the GM in this case) those tools. Charstats is harmless in any way when being used by our game moderators. (tmw calls them GameMasters)

DW it is not polite to call out people in mid topic. If you have Concerns make a new topic and pm the person in question.