General announcement for Manaplus

[o11c]

I have been peeved in the past that the people who make the official client don't play the game, and have used ManaPlus exclusively for a while.

I think a lot of people use ManaPlus because of the long gap in time and features between TMW 0.0.29.1 and Mana 0.5. By the time they released something, it was nothing new to people AND lacked many of the useful features of ManaPlus. Mana 0.6 looks good enough that I might play with it, if I weren't so busy as to not be playing at all.

That said, I have witnessed first-hand 4144's hostility and, for that and technical reasons (ManaPlus has tons of pointless but unmergeable whitespace changes), understand completely why ManaPlus features don't get magically merged into the Mana client, even if they are desirable.

[mistergrey]

Truly, it would be better if the ones making the client played a bit to get a first hand idea of what could be a nice addition to the client.

I'm a bit disappointed - while Bjorn may have made a dramatic statement, this was no reason for Manaplus supporters to get hostile. Even the most logical points lose some of their impact when made in an angry, stubborn fashion. It was clearly said that there are many features of Manaplus that are implemented in ways the official client cannot or will not use them. This was ignored, with a barrage of comments about how Manaplus is clearly better to the players. I'm not saying every "Manaplus supporter" did this, but there was enough that this topic became unpleasant to read.

I love Manaplus personally - but it's made differently, and to different standards. This should be respected. You will always be regarded more highly for calmly and concisely getting your point across, and actually considering what people reply to it. If you enter a debate refusing to bend your point of view a little, you've already lost the "argument" in my opinion.

[Nard]

I have been peeved in the past that the people who make the official client don't play the game, and have used ManaPlus exclusively for a while.

I think a lot of people use ManaPlus because of the long gap in time and features between TMW 0.0.29.1 and Mana 0.5. By the time they released something, it was nothing new to people AND lacked many of the useful features of ManaPlus. Mana 0.6 looks good enough that I might play with it, if I weren't so busy as to not be playing at all.

That said, I have witnessed first-hand 4144's hostility and, for that and technical reasons (ManaPlus has tons of pointless but unmergeable whitespace changes), understand completely why ManaPlus features don't get magically merged into the Mana client, even if they are desirable.

I explicitly did not include you in the developers that don't play the game. On the opposite I saw you playing and noticed with Derpella that you introduced quite funny challenges that could be the basis of funny events. I can understand your point of view of sticking closely to the TMW project even if I don't agree with all your Ideas about it. If you don't believe what I said, try a poll among developers in hidden forum and ask those who play what client they use. GM screen shots give the answer for them.
In my case, I switched to Manaplus because some of it's fun features and because I was fed up with constant disconnections and spam bans. Now I simply cannot return to the official client because some of my main characters are not in the three first position that are available on 0.6.0.
Unfortunately there is no magic in development :/ Manaplus client at least points out some lacks in the official client because their is too much distance between developers and gamers and their psychology; of course some are patches and work-arounds, 4144 cannot modify tmw server . Whether you choose to include them or not should result from a GHP debate which seems to have never happened, thus the decay between the clients.
Your last sentence and mrgrey's last post describe well the excessive stress that occur too often in these forums because WE lack of mutual respect and understanding will. Better communication is a must.

Cordially yours,

Nard

[Bjørn]

In my case, I switched to Manaplus because some of it's fun features and because I was fed up with constant disconnections and spam bans. Now I simply cannot return to the official client because some of my main characters are not in the three first position that are available on 0.6.0.

Please at least make sure you get your facts right. Mana 0.6 allows you to use all character slots available in tmwAthena. Also, like many of the things that may seem like they are ManaPlus improvements, this change was made to the official Mana client (by Bertram) and it just happened that ManaPlus released it earlier.

[4144]

In my case, I switched to Manaplus because some of it's fun features and because I was fed up with constant disconnections and spam bans. Now I simply cannot return to the official client because some of my main characters are not in the three first position that are available on 0.6.0.

Please at least make sure you get your facts right. Mana 0.6 allows you to use all character slots available in tmwAthena. Also, like many of the things that may seem like they are ManaPlus improvements, this change was made to the official Mana client (by Bertram) and it just happened that ManaPlus released it earlier.

Bjorn, please stop trolling. You already showed what you think about forks.
And try use real data:
https://gitorious.org/manaplus/manaplus ... rmat=patch
From: Andrei Karas <akaras@inbox.ru>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 03:28:11 +0200

https://gitorious.org/mana/mana/commit/ ... rmat=patch
From: Jared Adams <jaxad0127@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:09:37 -0600

[Nard]

In my case, I switched to Manaplus because some of it's fun features and because I was fed up with constant disconnections and spam bans. Now I simply cannot return to the official client because some of my main characters are not in the three first position that are available on 0.6.0.

Please at least make sure you get your facts right. Mana 0.6 allows you to use all character slots available in tmwAthena. Also, like many of the things that may seem like they are ManaPlus improvements, this change was made to the official Mana client (by Bertram) and it just happened that ManaPlus released it earlier.

Sorry, I was wrong, I referred to 0.5.0 which is the only one I can use on my mac. I tried 0.6.0 just recently.

[Bjørn]

Bjorn, please stop trolling. You already showed what you think about forks.
And try use real data:
https://gitorious.org/manaplus/manaplus ... rmat=patch
From: Andrei Karas <akaras@inbox.ru>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 03:28:11 +0200

https://gitorious.org/mana/mana/commit/ ... rmat=patch
From: Jared Adams <jaxad0127@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:09:37 -0600

Alright, so you discovered there were actually 9 rather than 3 slots, but your change was only possible because of the change Bertram did to make the amount of character slots dependent on the server:

https://gitorious.org/mana/mana/commit/ ... rmat=patch

[4144]

This mean support for variable chars in code was added in mana client first.

But support for 9 players in eathena in manaplus was first, and only after 4 moths in mana. This mean you lie about 9 players in mana.
I will not feed you more, sorry.

[argul]

And try use real data:
https://gitorious.org/manaplus/manaplus ... rmat=patch
From: Andrei Karas <akaras@inbox.ru>
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 03:28:11 +0200

https://gitorious.org/mana/mana/commit/ ... rmat=patch
From: Jared Adams <jaxad0127@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:09:37 -0600

These both commits seem very different to me in the way *how* the goal is achieved. The goal might be the same.
I don't think Jaxad just relabeled/reauthored your commit, do you think so?

Anyway here goes my proposal:
As manasource is an outsourced project and manaplus is also a project unrelated to tmw, why not announce none of both? Then the players are disturbed not at all if they felt so by those announces.
Both clients (could) have implemented a check on startup pointing out there is a new version available.

Regards

edit: typo

[Big Crunch]

here is my opinion.

Basically there are two different philosophies at work here. I will summarize them, but please dont assume they are all encompassing.

The ManaPlus project takes the players desires, and finds ways to make them work. It is a client with the players in mind first and foremost.

The Mana project tries to take the players desires, fold them into the client while maintaining cross compatibility with tmweathena and manasource.

While this might seem as though they have the same desires, and to a point they do, The Mana team has far more restrictions on what and how they can do things. For example, the online list. The ManaPlus client basically checks a website and displays the results. It works fine. However, Mana will not add it based on this method because it uses more bandwidth for the player, and as the player base grows, that usage will increase. I dont know about you, but the first thing that times out for me in Mana+ is the online list.

A second example is with guild usage. Jero created the guildbot to allow our guild to converse without the constraints of only 12 party members. 4144 has integrated a much smoother and nicer interface within his client, as any of the other guilds will attest to. On the surface it seems perfect, but the Mana devs see it (the guildbot) as an imperfect solution to a basic problem with the tmwathena code. They see it as a 'hacky' way to do it, considering it adds alot of traffic and potential latency. Their problem is with the ea code in and of itself, not with 4144's initial workaround, nor with the guildbot and 4144's implementation.

The gist of the matter is this. 4144 does great work. He thinks 'outside the box' to find workarounds for things the players seem to enjoy. The Mana team must look at it from a more overall perspective. They have to write the code for the client with manaserv and eathena code in mind, make sure that their coding is 'clean' and documented, moreso than 4144 has to do, considering that 4144 knows his code and is the only one that has to work on it and the Mana devs might move on or add people.

So lets summarize.

4144 does great work, puts out a client focused on the players. He doesnt have the concerns or worries that the Mana team has to deal with, and he's the only one working on the client so in essence he has cart blanche.

Mana devs also do great work. They work to streamline the client, make the interface more attractive, minimize the client footprint on the player, maintain compatibility with 2 servers and look toward the future in regards to making 'clean' and 'scalable' code and features.

In conclusion:

4144 & manaplus = good
Mana & manadevs = good